Abortion

**Cartesiantheater** · Jul 20th, 2006 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

Sorry, gotta disagree with you, CT. A baby has intelligence - limited intelligence, of course, but babies are constantly learning and taking things in. A fetus in the first trimester, on the other hand, doesn't really have a functioning brain yet. There's a huge difference between killing a child and killing something unable to think.

What about, say, "partial birth" abortion at month 8 and a half? Does this "fetus" have no neural function? Or what about a partial birth abortion at the 9 month mark? What's the difference between a "baby" and a "fetus" at these LATE stages of pregnancy aside from sensory input (seeing things, hearing things outside of the darkness of the womb)?
I said nothing about a fetus in the first trimester. I'm talking about "fetuses" with neural activity. (btw- let's not even go into consciousness; frankly, babies aren't anymore conscious than the Golden Rabbit of Wonder- hell, even ADULTS are fooled about there own consciousness, but that's a whole other discussion {see Daniel Dennet} {by consciousness, we mean self awareness; even grasshoppers are aware of things- clearly babies are NOT self aware, otherwise you expect us to remember being babies}) Mainly I'm referring to "partial birth" abortions. To me, at this point in the pregnancy, there really is no difference between a "fetus" and a baby, aside from what the senses experience. Agree? Disagree? Why?

edit- Also, I should point out that I said this at the bottom of my post:

Originally Posted by Me

All that being said, a "fetus," that is, an unborn homo sapiens, is NOT a person. Abortion is not on the same level as killing a person. It's more on the moral level of killing a lesser animal, like say, a rabbit, IMO. But a special, shiny golden rabbit. The Golden Rabbit of Wonder, if you will...

**Havoc Angel** · Jul 20th, 2006 4:16 PM

Hmm...maybe we should set the terms right before we continue the discussion:
An embryo is the early development phase.
The fetus is the late development phase.
After that it's birth.
So we could set the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable abortion at the point between embryo and fetus.

***donniedarko*** · Jul 20th, 2006 4:19 PM

Self-awareness is a late stage development, and that is the definition I go by in determining "person-ness" (lol, anyone seen You, Me and Dupree?). Kant would probably agree.

**Cartesiantheater** · Jul 20th, 2006 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by donniedarko

Self-awareness is a late stage development, and that is the definition I go by in determining "person-ness" (lol, anyone seen You, Me and Dupree?). Kant would probably agree.

babies are self-aware? Are they more self-aware than dogs, for example?

Or, because I'm truly sick, are they more aware than...
...

THE GOLDEN COW OF WONDER!!!!!!!!!!! (formerly, the Golden Rabbit of Wonder...)

***DontBeAfraid*** · Jul 20th, 2006 6:43 PM

Hell I dont remember being self aware until I was three.

partial births abortions are illegal so they have no place in this debate. other than that, well..... its a fetus until it looks like a baby; On the outside.

If it can come out viable its a baby. If not then either throw it away or dont take it out.

***Sammy56*** · Jul 20th, 2006 7:45 PM

Wait, how did the rabbit become a cow?

***Marajadex*** · Jul 20th, 2006 11:50 PM

For my 2 cents... It is a decision between a woman and a man and their Doctor. And Yes I believe a man has just as much right to the decision as a woman.

***Cornish Maid*** · Jul 21st, 2006 6:21 AM

If my mother had aborted me at whatever stage she would have deprived me of my only chance of life and the same goes for everyone.

***Jupiter*** · Jul 21st, 2006 7:53 AM

Yes, I'm pleased to be alive too Cornishmaid.

**Havoc Angel** · Jul 21st, 2006 8:21 AM

If I had been aborted, I wouldn't know the difference. Nothing gained, nothing lost.

***Philosopher Foelhe*** · Jul 21st, 2006 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

If my mother had aborted me at whatever stage she would have deprived me of my only chance of life and the same goes for everyone.

You're assuming there's no such thing as reincarnation or an afterlife. And even if there isn't, you'll be dead and nonexistant, so it's not like it'll suck or anything. You'll just be dead. *shrug*

In a weird way, that's sort've what it comes down to, isn't it? Whether or not you're afraid to die.

**grendel 13** · Jul 21st, 2006 10:22 AM

just wanted to put my two cents in, this is for all those that feel it is completely wrong no matter what, what if you were raped by some complete phsycho and he got you pregnant? whould you still choose to have that baby?

**Tortoise** · Jul 26th, 2006 8:43 PM

Whew! A loaded question. I have mixed feelings about it. First, if you believe it's absolutely wrong, regardless of circumstances, then it would most certainly be a wrong decision for you.

In a perfect world, people would make wise choices and never be faced with such a problem. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. My own feeling is that this is a decision that should never be made lightly. In addition, if someone wishes to end an unwanted pregnancy, it should be done early. Very early, or not at all.

I also prefer not to be too quick to judge someone who honestly feels so desperate that they believe it is the only acceptable option in their particular situation. They must live with their decision. Not I.

***Cornish Maid*** · Jul 27th, 2006 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

You're assuming there's no such thing as reincarnation or an afterlife. And even if there isn't, you'll be dead and nonexistant, so it's not like it'll suck or anything. You'll just be dead. *shrug*

In a weird way, that's sort've what it comes down to, isn't it? Whether or not you're afraid to die.

I personally don't believe in reincarnation, I think we are who we are and that is it. I am Cornish maid and you are Philosopher Foelhe. I do think there is an afterlife but I have no idea how this works out for aborted foetuses.

Yes I would be dead and so would you.

I suppose we are all afraid of the unknown.

***Philosopher Foelhe*** · Jul 27th, 2006 1:25 AM

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

I do think there is an afterlife but I have no idea how this works out for aborted foetuses.

*shrug* The way I see it, either they have a soul, and they go to the afterlife just like the rest of us, or they don't, and the child is just a mess of cells that isn't really anything of note yet.

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

Yes I would be dead and so would you.

Yeah, that's fine. Intellectually, from where I stand now, I would be disappointed that I missed out on the experience of life... but I'm disappointed by a lot of experiences I've missed. It's a shame, but I'm not going to make a federal case of it.

Of course, if there is no afterlife, there's no such thing as disappointment or regret after death. So it's not a problem. We don't experience emotions or thought after death, so it doesn't matter how we lived our lives, or whether we lived at all.

***Cornish Maid*** · Jul 27th, 2006 1:55 AM

Of course, if there is no afterlife, there's no such thing as disappointment or regret after death. So it's not a problem. We don't experience emotions or thought after death, so it doesn't matter how we lived our lives, or whether we lived at all.[/QUOTE]

If there is no afterlife it is still pretty amazing to know you are alive on planet Earth and to look up at the stars and know you are part of a huge universe, which you would't have known about if you hadn't been born.

***Philosopher Foelhe*** · Jul 27th, 2006 2:17 AM

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

If there is no afterlife it is still pretty amazing to know you are alive on planet Earth and to look up at the stars and know you are part of a huge universe, which you would't have known about if you hadn't been born.

Well, sure. I'd say that life is preferable to death - well, unless there's an afterlife - but in the grand scheme of things, death is where we end up. It's sorta like Venice. It's a beautiful city, and a real experience, but if I never visit... well, it's a shame, but it's no huge deal.

***Cornish Maid*** · Jul 27th, 2006 2:46 AM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

Well, sure. I'd say that life is preferable to death - well, unless there's an afterlife - but in the grand scheme of things, death is where we end up. It's sorta like Venice. It's a beautiful city, and a real experience, but if I never visit... well, it's a shame, but it's no huge deal.

Are you saying that if there is an afterlife, life isn't preferable to death?

Whats like Venice, life or death?

BTW you really should go to Venice sometime.

***Philosopher Foelhe*** · Jul 27th, 2006 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

Are you saying that if there is an afterlife, life isn't preferable to death?

I'm saying if there's an afterlife, we really can't say for sure which is better unless we know more about what the afterlife is like. I mean, wouldn't you rather be in Heaven than on Earth?

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

Whats like Venice, life or death?

Sorry, I worded that awkwardly. Venice is supposed to represent life.

***Cornish Maid*** · Jul 27th, 2006 4:41 AM

[QUOTE=Philosopher Foelhe]I'm saying if there's an afterlife, we really can't say for sure which is better unless we know more about what the afterlife is like. I mean, wouldn't you rather be in Heaven than on Earth?

So when it comes to aborted foetuses, and if there is an afterlife, and they go straight to heaven, (do not pass go, do not and collect £200), they are possibly better off if life on Earth isn't all it's cracked up to be.

They will have to do a survey in heaven.

Would you like to have been born or are you happy missing that stage of your personal evolution.

]

***loganosborne*** · Jul 27th, 2006 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

I'm saying if there's an afterlife, we really can't say for sure which is better unless we know more about what the afterlife is like. I mean, wouldn't you rather be in Heaven than on Earth?

Good point for all we know the afterlife could be worse than this life.

***Cornish Maid*** · Jul 27th, 2006 5:00 AM

So you think possibly aborted foetuses could have a worse deal in the afterlife.

Skip the life bit and just go straight to hell.

How many are we talking about here? I will have to look into it. Bet it beats the holocaust

***Cornish Maid*** · Jul 27th, 2006 5:18 AM

This is a bit out of date

World Abortion Statistics

54 countries allow abortion, which is about 61 percent of the world population. 97 countries, about 39 percent of the population, have abortion laws that make it illegal according to the pro-abortion Center for Reproductive Law and Policy in New York.

The Alan Guttmacher Institute reports approximately 22 million legal abortions were reported in 1987.
It is estimated that between four and nine million were not reported, totaling of 26-31 million legal abortions in 1987 alone.
There were a total of 10-22 million "clandestine" abortions, bringing the total worldwide figure to 36 and 53 million abortions.
France - Legalized
Britain - Legalized
Switzerland - Legalized
Denmark - legalized
Hungary - Legalized
Romania - Legalized
Poland - Illegal
Italy - Legalized
Colombia - Illegal
Peru - Illegal
Mexico - Illegal
Russia - Legalized
United States - Legalized
China -Legalized
Australia - Legalized
Brazil - Illegal

Sources: International Family Planning Perspectives, 16:59, June 1990; USA Today, 8/8/96.

Last Updated: 03/15/03

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***Philosopher Foelhe*** · Jul 27th, 2006 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

Would you like to have been born or are you happy missing that stage of your personal evolution.

A lot of children are stillborn, and also have no chance to participate in life. It may suck, but apparently it's not so detrimental that God won't avoid it.

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

So you think possibly aborted foetuses could have a worse deal in the afterlife.

Skip the life bit and just go straight to hell.

It's possible, unfortunately. We really don't know what the afterlife is like, so for all we know, we could all be headed straight to Hell.

Originally Posted by Cornish Maid

How many are we talking about here? I will have to look into it. Bet it beats the holocaust

That's not really comparable. Holocaust victims went through pain and terror before they died, whereas a first-trimester embryo doesn't really feel those things.

***Cornish Maid*** · Jul 27th, 2006 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe

A lot of children are stillborn, and also have no chance to participate in life. It may suck, but apparently it's not so detrimental that God won't avoid it.

It's possible, unfortunately. We really don't know what the afterlife is like, so for all we know, we could all be headed straight to Hell.

That's not really comparable. Holocaust victims went through pain and terror before they died, whereas a first-trimester embryo doesn't really feel those things.

True, and one in three pregnancies ends in miscarriage.

Agreed, but just looking at the figures of on average 36,000,000 abortions a year, over 30 years that would be1080,000,000 people aborted. Is this right?