View Poll Results: Do you think abortion is right?

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  • Yes, the baby is not alive

    10 9.01%
  • No, it's just wrong

    48 43.24%
  • It depends on how far along the pregnacy is

    45 40.54%
  • I don't care. I eat babies and suck at life.

    8 7.21%
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Thread: Abortion

  1. #26
    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe
    Sorry, gotta disagree with you, CT. A baby has intelligence - limited intelligence, of course, but babies are constantly learning and taking things in. A fetus in the first trimester, on the other hand, doesn't really have a functioning brain yet. There's a huge difference between killing a child and killing something unable to think.
    What about, say, "partial birth" abortion at month 8 and a half? Does this "fetus" have no neural function? Or what about a partial birth abortion at the 9 month mark? What's the difference between a "baby" and a "fetus" at these LATE stages of pregnancy aside from sensory input (seeing things, hearing things outside of the darkness of the womb)?
    I said nothing about a fetus in the first trimester. I'm talking about "fetuses" with neural activity. (btw- let's not even go into consciousness; frankly, babies aren't anymore conscious than the Golden Rabbit of Wonder- hell, even ADULTS are fooled about there own consciousness, but that's a whole other discussion {see Daniel Dennet} {by consciousness, we mean self awareness; even grasshoppers are aware of things- clearly babies are NOT self aware, otherwise you expect us to remember being babies}) Mainly I'm referring to "partial birth" abortions. To me, at this point in the pregnancy, there really is no difference between a "fetus" and a baby, aside from what the senses experience. Agree? Disagree? Why?

    edit- Also, I should point out that I said this at the bottom of my post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    All that being said, a "fetus," that is, an unborn homo sapiens, is NOT a person. Abortion is not on the same level as killing a person. It's more on the moral level of killing a lesser animal, like say, a rabbit, IMO. But a special, shiny golden rabbit. The Golden Rabbit of Wonder, if you will...
    Last edited by Cartesiantheater; Jul 20th, 2006 at 5:06 PM.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

  2. #27
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Havoc Angel's Avatar
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    Hmm...maybe we should set the terms right before we continue the discussion:
    An embryo is the early development phase.
    The fetus is the late development phase.
    After that it's birth.
    So we could set the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable abortion at the point between embryo and fetus.
    Last edited by Havoc Angel; Jul 20th, 2006 at 5:18 PM.
    Please, get out of your mind.
    You will love the new perspective.

  3. #28
    Manjushri Contributor donniedarko's Avatar
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    Self-awareness is a late stage development, and that is the definition I go by in determining "person-ness" (lol, anyone seen You, Me and Dupree?). Kant would probably agree.
    .:if knowledge is power, know this is tyranny:.

  4. #29
    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donniedarko
    Self-awareness is a late stage development, and that is the definition I go by in determining "person-ness" (lol, anyone seen You, Me and Dupree?). Kant would probably agree.
    babies are self-aware? Are they more self-aware than dogs, for example?

    Or, because I'm truly sick, are they more aware than...
    ...

    THE GOLDEN COW OF WONDER!!!!!!!!!!! (formerly, the Golden Rabbit of Wonder...)
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

  5. #30
    FlatLiner Contributor DontBeAfraid's Avatar
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    Hell I dont remember being self aware until I was three.

    partial births abortions are illegal so they have no place in this debate. other than that, well..... its a fetus until it looks like a baby; On the outside.

    If it can come out viable its a baby. If not then either throw it away or dont take it out.
    I aggressively attack stupidity... If you feel I am being aggressive, well....

  6. #31
    Laz's Test Bunny Contributor Sammy56's Avatar
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    Wait, how did the rabbit become a cow?
    "As far as the stars are from Earth is the distance of your wonderfulness."

    "For there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so..." ~Shakespeare

  7. #32
    Sith Lord Contributor Marajadex's Avatar
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    For my 2 cents... It is a decision between a woman and a man and their Doctor. And Yes I believe a man has just as much right to the decision as a woman.
    "So life's a bitch. What do you want to do, cry about it?" Lt. Kara 'Starbuck' Thrace

  8. #33
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    If my mother had aborted me at whatever stage she would have deprived me of my only chance of life and the same goes for everyone.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  9. #34
    20,000 degrees C (core) Contributor
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    Yes, I'm pleased to be alive too Cornishmaid.

  10. #35
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Havoc Angel's Avatar
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    If I had been aborted, I wouldn't know the difference. Nothing gained, nothing lost.
    Please, get out of your mind.
    You will love the new perspective.

  11. #36
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    If my mother had aborted me at whatever stage she would have deprived me of my only chance of life and the same goes for everyone.
    You're assuming there's no such thing as reincarnation or an afterlife. And even if there isn't, you'll be dead and nonexistant, so it's not like it'll suck or anything. You'll just be dead. *shrug*

    In a weird way, that's sort've what it comes down to, isn't it? Whether or not you're afraid to die.
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  12. #37
    Leader of the bomb shelter Seasoned Member grendel 13's Avatar
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    just wanted to put my two cents in, this is for all those that feel it is completely wrong no matter what, what if you were raped by some complete phsycho and he got you pregnant? whould you still choose to have that baby?
    not merely peace for americans but peace for all men and women -- not merely peace in our time but peace for all time. -J.F.K

  13. #38
    Radioactive Serious Member
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    Whew! A loaded question. I have mixed feelings about it. First, if you believe it's absolutely wrong, regardless of circumstances, then it would most certainly be a wrong decision for you.

    In a perfect world, people would make wise choices and never be faced with such a problem. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. My own feeling is that this is a decision that should never be made lightly. In addition, if someone wishes to end an unwanted pregnancy, it should be done early. Very early, or not at all.

    I also prefer not to be too quick to judge someone who honestly feels so desperate that they believe it is the only acceptable option in their particular situation. They must live with their decision. Not I.

  14. #39
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe
    You're assuming there's no such thing as reincarnation or an afterlife. And even if there isn't, you'll be dead and nonexistant, so it's not like it'll suck or anything. You'll just be dead. *shrug*

    In a weird way, that's sort've what it comes down to, isn't it? Whether or not you're afraid to die.
    I personally don't believe in reincarnation, I think we are who we are and that is it. I am Cornish maid and you are Philosopher Foelhe. I do think there is an afterlife but I have no idea how this works out for aborted foetuses.

    Yes I would be dead and so would you.

    I suppose we are all afraid of the unknown.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  15. #40
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    I do think there is an afterlife but I have no idea how this works out for aborted foetuses.
    *shrug* The way I see it, either they have a soul, and they go to the afterlife just like the rest of us, or they don't, and the child is just a mess of cells that isn't really anything of note yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    Yes I would be dead and so would you.
    Yeah, that's fine. Intellectually, from where I stand now, I would be disappointed that I missed out on the experience of life... but I'm disappointed by a lot of experiences I've missed. It's a shame, but I'm not going to make a federal case of it.

    Of course, if there is no afterlife, there's no such thing as disappointment or regret after death. So it's not a problem. We don't experience emotions or thought after death, so it doesn't matter how we lived our lives, or whether we lived at all.
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  16. #41
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Of course, if there is no afterlife, there's no such thing as disappointment or regret after death. So it's not a problem. We don't experience emotions or thought after death, so it doesn't matter how we lived our lives, or whether we lived at all.[/QUOTE]



    If there is no afterlife it is still pretty amazing to know you are alive on planet Earth and to look up at the stars and know you are part of a huge universe, which you would't have known about if you hadn't been born.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  17. #42
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    If there is no afterlife it is still pretty amazing to know you are alive on planet Earth and to look up at the stars and know you are part of a huge universe, which you would't have known about if you hadn't been born.
    Well, sure. I'd say that life is preferable to death - well, unless there's an afterlife - but in the grand scheme of things, death is where we end up. It's sorta like Venice. It's a beautiful city, and a real experience, but if I never visit... well, it's a shame, but it's no huge deal.
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  18. #43
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe
    Well, sure. I'd say that life is preferable to death - well, unless there's an afterlife - but in the grand scheme of things, death is where we end up. It's sorta like Venice. It's a beautiful city, and a real experience, but if I never visit... well, it's a shame, but it's no huge deal.
    Are you saying that if there is an afterlife, life isn't preferable to death?

    Whats like Venice, life or death?

    BTW you really should go to Venice sometime.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  19. #44
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    Are you saying that if there is an afterlife, life isn't preferable to death?
    I'm saying if there's an afterlife, we really can't say for sure which is better unless we know more about what the afterlife is like. I mean, wouldn't you rather be in Heaven than on Earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    Whats like Venice, life or death?
    Sorry, I worded that awkwardly. Venice is supposed to represent life.
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  20. #45
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Philosopher Foelhe]I'm saying if there's an afterlife, we really can't say for sure which is better unless we know more about what the afterlife is like. I mean, wouldn't you rather be in Heaven than on Earth?

    So when it comes to aborted foetuses, and if there is an afterlife, and they go straight to heaven, (do not pass go, do not and collect 200), they are possibly better off if life on Earth isn't all it's cracked up to be.

    They will have to do a survey in heaven.

    Would you like to have been born or are you happy missing that stage of your personal evolution.

    ]
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  21. #46
    Be Afraid, Very Afraid Contributor loganosborne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe
    I'm saying if there's an afterlife, we really can't say for sure which is better unless we know more about what the afterlife is like. I mean, wouldn't you rather be in Heaven than on Earth?
    Good point for all we know the afterlife could be worse than this life.
    A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.- Friedrich Nietzsche

  22. #47
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    So you think possibly aborted foetuses could have a worse deal in the afterlife.

    Skip the life bit and just go straight to hell.

    How many are we talking about here? I will have to look into it. Bet it beats the holocaust
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  23. #48
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    This is a bit out of date

    World Abortion Statistics

    54 countries allow abortion, which is about 61 percent of the world population. 97 countries, about 39 percent of the population, have abortion laws that make it illegal according to the pro-abortion Center for Reproductive Law and Policy in New York.

    The Alan Guttmacher Institute reports approximately 22 million legal abortions were reported in 1987.
    It is estimated that between four and nine million were not reported, totaling of 26-31 million legal abortions in 1987 alone.
    There were a total of 10-22 million "clandestine" abortions, bringing the total worldwide figure to 36 and 53 million abortions.
    France - Legalized
    Britain - Legalized
    Switzerland - Legalized
    Denmark - legalized
    Hungary - Legalized
    Romania - Legalized
    Poland - Illegal
    Italy - Legalized
    Colombia - Illegal
    Peru - Illegal
    Mexico - Illegal
    Russia - Legalized
    United States - Legalized
    China -Legalized
    Australia - Legalized
    Brazil - Illegal

    Sources: International Family Planning Perspectives, 16:59, June 1990; USA Today, 8/8/96.


    Last Updated: 03/15/03



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .
    Last edited by Cornish Maid; Jul 27th, 2006 at 6:20 AM.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  24. #49
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    Would you like to have been born or are you happy missing that stage of your personal evolution.
    A lot of children are stillborn, and also have no chance to participate in life. It may suck, but apparently it's not so detrimental that God won't avoid it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    So you think possibly aborted foetuses could have a worse deal in the afterlife.

    Skip the life bit and just go straight to hell.
    It's possible, unfortunately. We really don't know what the afterlife is like, so for all we know, we could all be headed straight to Hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    How many are we talking about here? I will have to look into it. Bet it beats the holocaust
    That's not really comparable. Holocaust victims went through pain and terror before they died, whereas a first-trimester embryo doesn't really feel those things.
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  25. #50
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe
    A lot of children are stillborn, and also have no chance to participate in life. It may suck, but apparently it's not so detrimental that God won't avoid it.


    It's possible, unfortunately. We really don't know what the afterlife is like, so for all we know, we could all be headed straight to Hell.



    That's not really comparable. Holocaust victims went through pain and terror before they died, whereas a first-trimester embryo doesn't really feel those things.
    True, and one in three pregnancies ends in miscarriage.

    Agreed, but just looking at the figures of on average 36,000,000 abortions a year, over 30 years that would be1080,000,000 people aborted. Is this right?
    Last edited by Cornish Maid; Jul 27th, 2006 at 2:56 PM.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

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