Abortion

[donniedarko]

Ning et al. do you eat meat?

[TC]

I used to very pro choice until I saw the birth of my son, just a little tiny baby coming out of the womb so helpless and I knew it was my job to protect him. At that moment I decided that abortion was wrong. No one asks the child if they want to live, no one asked them if it was ok for mom and dad to have sex for pleasure and if they conceived if it would be all right to end the little life they had created. Sorry folks but abortion is murder when you end a pregnancy you are ending a HUMAN life. Call it an embryo, a fetus or whatever else you want to justify the decision it’s still a human being and the action took killed it. There are times when this is justified if the mother is not going to survive the birth then sorry kid, in the case of rape and incest it may be the best option to abort that is a decision that must be left to the mother.

Now should it be illegal? There needs to be laws to prevent its use as a contraceptive sorry folks but if you have sex for pleasure you better take precautions because any life you create is on you. On the other hand the choice to kill your children before birth is up to you just don’t justify the killing by claming that its not a human yet.

I agree on every point! And while I don't have any religious motivation as to an opinion, I do on the other hand resent the use of abortion as a late form of contraceptive, as I mentioned earlier as to it being a lack of self control! And my own opinion is that alongside Cancer and War, abortion is the plaque of the 21 century!

With all the opinions of what we call life in regards to a conscious being, its based on the perspective that there is no form of communication to verify that this small entity has any conception of self awareness, but it has a heart beat, it has motor functions, it changes position in the womb, and by what I've seen through several documented ultra sound videos, it most assuredly reacts to pain! And the argument that those videos are a propaganda tool from a right sided politic shows how absurd this argument has become! so we go to great lengths to deny what we see because the ethical burden of whats taken place over the last sixty years would rank our so called advanced civility to the bottom of the list.....

Personally I see it as methodical murder.

[Cherisa]

whilst we worry about abuse in other places we abuse in our own backyard. We try to "help" other countrys while we murder our own. If you don't think it's murder then I could show you some *graffic* evidence.


http://www.glamour.com/news/feature/...arriage06april
http://www.glamour.com/news/feature/...obaldiary06sep

Abortion leaves a scar on the women it is performed on.

[DontBeAfraid]

Those links were about slave prostitutes...

[donniedarko]

Abortion prior to sentience is not murder. If you believe that it is, you believe that eating meat is murder. Stepping on spiders is manslaughter and mass harvest of plants is equal to the holocaust. Prior to complex neural function, a fetus is exactly what has been stated. A bunch of cells with the same predominant make-up as an adult with the potential to become a full-fledged human being. AT THAT POINT, biologically, physiologically, genetically and most importantly ethically, this cluster of cells is not considered a sentient human being.

A heart beats because that is its physiological function, hook up a heart outside of human to the correct stimuli and it will beat. Plants exhibit the same pain reaction that humans do (to an extent) and so do many animals, pain does not define sentience. You might as well charge a woman who trips and falls causing a miscarriage with manslaughter, if you want to bring a legal argument into it. Plants and numerous crop animals have motor function. Yeast have motor function when making beer.

Abortion is like any other complex surgical removal. It leaves a scar on those who let it.

[MaximumPain]

you believe that eating meat is murder. .

Tasty tasty murder mmmmm.

Stepping on spiders is manslaughter

Even if my wife asks me too?
Plus I usually plan out my killing of spiders so it would be 1st degree murder.

and mass harvest of plants is equal to the holocaust.

How is that anything like killing a human fetus?
It’s much lower form of life and my survival depends on it.

Prior to complex neural function, a fetus is exactly what has been stated. A bunch of cells with the same predominant make-up as an adult with the potential to become a full-fledged human being. AT THAT POINT, biologically, physiologically, genetically and most importantly ethically, this cluster of cells is not considered a sentient human being.

I have no doubt that scientifically you are absolutely correct. But if allowed to complete its process it will become a human being if you end that process you have prevented a human being from developing by committing a violent act severing it from its life line. In this case I don’t think a cold, logical, scientific definition of when to consider an organism sentient helps us. Is it a human once the nerves and brain form? Or does it need to become self aware first?

A heart beats because that is its physiological function, hook up a heart outside of human to the correct stimuli and it will beat.

But can it love, cry, and race with excitement?

Plants exhibit the same pain reaction that humans do (to an extent) and so do many animals, pain does not define sentience.

If you mean an electrochemical response to injury sure. But can a plant get a broken heart? Can it race with excitement and joy at some accomplishment? If its not snuffed out before it gets a chance a human heart can.

You might as well charge a woman who trips and falls causing a miscarriage with manslaughter, if you want to bring a legal argument into it. Plants and numerous crop animals have motor function. Yeast have motor function when making beer.

Not even close abortion is done with intent to remove a living thing from its life support, falling down is clearly an accident. Sorry but you cant even begin to compare plants to humans, a plant if its lucky will grow tall and thick and germinate and create seeds, a human could become a doctor, or great thinker and add value to our society. But if you kill them in the womb they never get a chance.

Abortion is like any other complex surgical removal. It leaves a scar on those who let it.

As a man I will never know what it is like to have an abortion and what the physical and emotional scars are like. What I do know is that I would go through the rest of my life wondering what kind of person that child would have been and what they would have brought to this world.

[DontBeAfraid]

A fetus is very much like plant life.... A fetus does not feel love or excitement.... Killing a fetus is not the same as killing a person.... Comparing a fetus to a person is like a carrot to a person.

[donniedarko]

How is that anything like killing a human fetus?
It’s much lower form of life and my survival depends on it.

Ah, "lower form of life". What a incredibly ludricous term. How do you define "lower form of life"? Where do you draw the line? What about people with no neural function due to brain injury? Do you wonder why they call it "vegetative state"? Are they a lower form of life too?

I have no doubt that scientifically you are absolutely correct. But if allowed to complete its process it will become a human being if you end that process you have prevented a human being from developing by committing a violent act severing it from its life line. In this case I don’t think a cold, logical, scientific definition of when to consider an organism sentient helps us. Is it a human once the nerves and brain form? Or does it need to become self aware first?

That is a huge IF my friend. I would argue that it becomes "human" via its genetic make-up. It becomes a "person" when it is self-aware. Abortion is as violent as removing a tumour.

But can it love, cry, and race with excitement?

Can a fetus?

If you mean an electrochemical response to injury sure. But can a plant get a broken heart? Can it race with excitement and joy at some accomplishment? If its not snuffed out before it gets a chance a human heart can.

How do you know? What defines your ability to do these things? Complex biochemical pathways that work together to form conciousness (from a determinist persepective). Your soul (if you believe in that)?

Not even close abortion is done with intent to remove a living thing from its life support, falling down is clearly an accident.

So is hitting someone with a car. They charge you for manslaughter anyway, that is why I said manslaughter as opposed to homocide.

...a plant if its lucky will grow tall and thick and germinate and create seeds, a human could become a doctor, or great thinker and add value to our society.

And yet with out plants who you say

It’s much lower form of life and my survival depends on it.

our society wouldn't exist. WE wouldn't exist. How can YOU make that value judgment?

As a man I will never know what it is like to have an abortion and what the physical and emotional scars are like. What I do know is that I would go through the rest of my life wondering what kind of person that child would have been and what they would have brought to this world.

A failing in Western society is our obsession with regret; we focus too much on what "could have been" instead of what "can be". That is the true tragedy here.

[Cherisa]

Those links were about slave prostitutes...

Yeah, I know I was showing how hypocritical AMERICANS are, whilst we rush off to save
people in other countries we kill our own fetus' it's makes no sense at all to me. WHY NOT TRY SAVING SOME LIVES HERE?

[DontBeAfraid]

fetus' are not people. Its kind of disturbing that you would compare the suffering of the people in those links to killing something as smart and as aware as a carrot.

[Cherisa]

fetus' are not people. Its kind of disturbing that you would compare the suffering of the people in those links to killing something as smart and as aware as a carrot.

So, how about a 6 month old? They are maybe a little smarter than a carrot, huh?
Do you see any problem with taking them out and stoning them?

[Demonskates]

Having a daughter, I cant imagine life without her. I dont see how anyone could abort their child, but i am not female so...................Not my choice i guess.
She makes me laugh so much. She is what makes life worthwhile for me. The rest of it before her has sucked thus far. Mostly my own doing. I could care less what happens in this world because she is my world. She is my best friend. I gave up on relationships. They dont even seem to matter anymore to me. Im too busy for it most of the time anyway. I will never understand abortion. I've heard it equated to "the American Holocaust." Thats not a bad description.

[donniedarko]

So, how about a 6 month old? They are maybe a little smarter than a carrot, huh?
Do you see any problem with taking them out and stoning them?

That is not the debate though. You don't abort 6 month olds.

There are a million decisions you have made in your life that you think about and realize that you can't imagine life having not made that decision. Of course you can't, because there is temporal distance.

Furthermore, abortion is not by any legal definition murder and to suggest as such is simply false.

Abortion may make you squeamish, it may make you unhappy but calling a surgical removal of an UNDIFFERENTIATED TISSUE (i.e. fetus) murder is slander (well, technically here it is libel).

Why not debate the ethics of providing abortion procedures as a means of contraception? That you can take a firmer subjective stance on. Instead of trying to define the nebulous term of a "person", where you inherently lose ground because biologically, a fetus and a carrot might as well be the same, why not argue that it is unethical to use abortion to escape the consequences of unprotected sex?

By taking an all or nothing stance, you weaken your position. We could introduce the same questions that pit the rights of the individual carrying the child over the rights of the child being carried. What about rape victims? Why should they have to carry a child to term having been impregnated without concent?

Clearly, the answer is no. With the all or nothing stance, your entire argument derails at this point. If you instead come to an agreement on the middle ground you strengthen your case for pro-life (within context).

If we have learned anything here at AO, its that extreme beliefs and fundamentalism are the root cause of much of the world's suffering.

[Demonskates]

Sure. legally its not "Murder." Legally we invaded Iraq. We can make the rules as we go. But those are just definitions and labels, made by men. A "Fetus." Is a label. a definition given to somthing. Fetus makes it sound less human if you ask me.
"It's not a human yet, therefore we can remove it, and technically, by deffinition, its not murder."
Reguardless of what you name somthing, or weather the "law" excepts it dosent change the fact that a would be human, is being removed.
Whats the diffrence between removing a fetus, or me walking up and killing a person with a gun? Deffinitions, and labels. Thats all. A bunch of people decide on this label, have that label recognised by the law and there you have it.
The fetus is just as dead as the sucker i just capped. It's a perversion of the law, in which Killing a fetus is legal by definition, and Murder of a born human is not. Its murder no matter which way you cut it. wwho are we to say "well we have decided that you arent human yet, so out you go." When we know full well, if that fetus isnt removed it results in a human being. Because it has a fancy name like Fetus, and murder is replaced with Abortion, and made to sound like just any medical procedure, It is acceptible? Murder is murder no matter how many innocent terms you attach to them. The fact is, that what is being removed, has been denied what should be an absoulute given. That it has a right to life. without someone deciding on its behalf weather it should live or not. Who are we to decide what lives, and what does not? Why should that fetus be any diffrent than those of us who were given that right to life? How can you say its not human? Sure, a label or a deffinition. No matter what you say, that fetus results in a human, therefore human. Its not a dog in there. Its not a cow, or a Bird. Its the foundation of a human being, who has as much right to live as you or I. "Well its not quite human yet." Thats just semantics. People who if had been left alone in the womb, would have been a human. People scream and cry about war, and "How dare we kill those innocent people," while at the same time are ripping what would be a human from their wombs. Paint whatever picture you like. Thats the bottom line. Now by law, my argument may not mean much. But in reality, fetus's are being prevented the right to become a person, and denied the right to live, by others.
Why is the fetus getting the death sentance? What did it do?
people on death row are being killed for heinous crimes.
What did the fetus do to have it ripped from the womb?
Because of the ignorance of the creators, the fetus is punished?
I know girls who use it as birth control. They just get knocked up repeatedly, becuse thay can have an abortion. So because that tart is irresponsible, the fetus has to die? Because the parents couldnt abstain, they have the right to terminate a future child?
Thats a big cop out if you ask me.

[grendel 13]

demonskates, just to get you thinking, what if your daughter had actually been conceived by someone raping your wife/girlfriend? would you want your wife/girlfriend to still have that baby? also what about babies that have severe defects? would you rather the baby live a very hard life full of pain and suffering or would you rather spare the baby that life through abortion? is it better to live a painful miserable life than to not have lived at all?

also if we want to argue the issue of wether or not it is murder, than we better analyse our views towards all life. why is it ok to kill a cow or pig but not a fetus? all life is equally important or it wouldn't be here. personally i think that human life should be at the bottom of the totem pole, considering what we have done with our lives, and how our actions have negatively affected every other lifeform on the planet.

[DontBeAfraid]

Its called a fetus because it is NOT a human. The difference between capping a person on the street and aborting a fetus is that the person on the street is sentient.... The fetus is alive only by the definition of life, but by that definition so is a tree. So the difference between capping a person on the street and aborting a fetus is the same as the difference between murdering a human and chopping down a tree.

[Demonskates]

demonskates, just to get you thinking, what if your daughter had actually been conceived by someone raping your wife/girlfriend? would you want your wife/girlfriend to still have that baby? also what about babies that have severe defects? would you rather the baby live a very hard life full of pain and suffering or would you rather spare the baby that life through abortion? is it better to live a painful miserable life than to not have lived at all?

also if we want to argue the issue of wether or not it is murder, than we better analyse our views towards all life. why is it ok to kill a cow or pig but not a fetus? all life is equally important or it wouldn't be here. personally i think that human life should be at the bottom of the totem pole, considering what we have done with our lives, and how our actions have negatively affected every other lifeform on the planet.

Life is full of pain and suffering for people free of defects as well .By that logic, we should kill anything that has a defect so they wont suffer. As far as rape. I dont know.
I agree. we should look at all life. I am a meat eater. I love it, yet i feel slightly guilty because of it. As far as cases of rape go, i guess I can see it, but for defects? That sounds like euthanasia to me. Im in pain 24/7 from my back injury. I suffer. But there is enough good out there to keep me going. At least i have a choice to live or not. The fetus dosent get that chance. What about the people who have them where there is no rape, or defect, the ones who couldnt spring for a three pack of condoms? People who use it for birth control? Abortions if they should be legal at all should be granted in the case of rape. They shouldnt be granted because "Im not ready to be a mom, or dad." Thats why there are adoption agencys.Or if used for birth control.
If your not ready to be a mom or a dad. "Then why are you out shagging?" Those are selfish reasons to have an abortion I.M.O.
I agree. Humans generaly destroy everything they come in contact with.

[TC]

Outside of the medical and rape question.... its still a methodical execution used for the most case as a fall back contraceptive.... classify a fetus as a lower life form if that fits.... obviously a plant or carrot would ease any moral conflict, or better yet lets hide behind the classification of law... and call it legal vegetable homicide.

[DontBeAfraid]

If your not ready to be a mom or a dad. "Then why are you out shagging?"

DS if you have EVER had sex for fun then its quite hypocritical to use that argument.

classify a fetus as a lower life form if that fits in your in your dodge....

It is a mass of tissue with potential.... that is all it is.

[Demonskates]

DS if you have EVER had sex for fun then its quite hypocritical to use that argument.

It is a mass of tissue with potential.... that is all it is.

I have just for fun. But i wrapped the Weasle first, which took about $1.50, and three minutes of wrestling with the package. LOL. I was at least trying to be responsible. I didnt just have at it.

[grendel 13]

I have just for fun. But i wrapped the Weasle first, which took about $1.50, and three minutes of wrestling with the package. LOL. I was at least trying to be responsible. I didnt just have at it.

see the real problems lies with responsibility. i mean we probably wouldn't even be discussing this if people would just act like responsible adults. as with almost every problem in the world right now, the issue is rarely dealt with at the source, rather we argue about the after effects of certain actions and decision we have made, instead of taking the time to think about what we are about to do and wether or not we are acting responsibly.

[donniedarko]

Bah. What a silly argument. You claim semantics and then state that because we can just DEFINE shit you are right no matter what?? What gives you that authority, in the end, it all boils down to YOUR opinion on what is right and what is wrong, yet you cannot dictate an absolute.

People define things and make laws for a reason. You can just dismiss that all you want but is that productive? Your laws don't fit with my way of thinking so I am just going to say they don't count?

Ignorance must surely be bliss because so many people choose it.

At the end of the day, a fetus is exactly this. A bunch of cells that COULD become a person. At THAT point they are not a person. Why not extend it all the way to ANY form of contraception. That condom you chucked out DS, that was a couple million potential people. A woman is a mass murderer when she starts her menstrual cycle.

Beyond that, making the false comparison of a fetus to a person is ridiculous. They are not one in the same.

In fact I doubt I should be using the term fetus, because that carries too much weight. I will just define it as the collection of cells in a womens womb.

As I have said, your all or nothing stance inherently weakens your argument, because you have to avoid the whole issue of rape and non-consensual pregnancy. In fact, you end up reiterating the argument that I proposed in my previous post.

nstead of trying to define the nebulous term of a "person", where you inherently lose ground because biologically, a fetus and a carrot might as well be the same, why not argue that it is unethical to use abortion to escape the consequences of unprotected sex?

You state "Who are we to decide what lives, and what does not?" Indeed, who are you? Why do you eat anything except non-organic matter (how about a nice slab of granite for lunch, eh?)

Outside of the medical and rape question.... its still a methodical execution used for the most case as a fall back contraceptive.... classify a fetus as a lower life form if that fits.... obviously a plant or carrot would ease any moral conflict, or better yet lets hide behind the classification of law... and call it legal vegetable homicide.

Frankly, SR, I am disappointed. To escape having to deal with reality, let's hide behind some sarcastic sense of false moral superiority without actually acknowledging any of the arguments presented.

[liberdave]

I think the real question is whether or not it should be legal. Or is that a whole new thread?

*liberdave throws more wood into the fire to watch it burn...

[Fojos]

As soon as something can think I call it murder.

In reality, I have no opinion for abortion, same as I have no opinion for wars, they do not concern me, and I would only hurt myself by concerning.

[TC]

Bah. What a silly argument. You claim semantics and then state that because we can just DEFINE shit you are right no matter what?? What gives you that authority, in the end, it all boils down to YOUR opinion on what is right and what is wrong, yet you cannot dictate an absolute.

People define things and make laws for a reason. You can just dismiss that all you want but is that productive? Your laws don't fit with my way of thinking so I am just going to say they don't count?

Ignorance must surely be bliss because so many people choose it.

At the end of the day, a fetus is exactly this. A bunch of cells that COULD become a person. At THAT point they are not a person. Why not extend it all the way to ANY form of contraception. That condom you chucked out DS, that was a couple million potential people. A woman is a mass murderer when she starts her menstrual cycle.

Beyond that, making the false comparison of a fetus to a person is ridiculous. They are not one in the same.

In fact I doubt I should be using the term fetus, because that carries too much weight. I will just define it as the collection of cells in a womens womb.

As I have said, your all or nothing stance inherently weakens your argument, because you have to avoid the whole issue of rape and non-consensual pregnancy. In fact, you end up reiterating the argument that I proposed in my previous post.



You state "Who are we to decide what lives, and what does not?" Indeed, who are you? Why do you eat anything except non-organic matter (how about a nice slab of granite for lunch, eh?)



Frankly, SR, I am disappointed. To escape having to deal with reality, let's hide behind some sarcastic sense of false moral superiority without actually acknowledging any of the arguments presented.

Not at all sarcastic, not even meant to be on my part.. its what the definition ends up as, using the terminologies presented to what a fetus might be, and given the law. Its each persons opinion how they define it, I personally don't buy the "plant/carrot" definitions, and I have no moral ground to stand either. My bad if you took that way..