View Poll Results: Do you think abortion is right?

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  • Yes, the baby is not alive

    10 9.01%
  • No, it's just wrong

    48 43.24%
  • It depends on how far along the pregnacy is

    45 40.54%
  • I don't care. I eat babies and suck at life.

    8 7.21%
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Thread: Abortion

  1. #276
    FlatLiner Contributor DontBeAfraid's Avatar
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  2. #277
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammy56 View Post
    How could I have objected? I would have never known.
    No, you would never have known anything, that is the point.

    Not just then but now and forevermore.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  3. #278
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    Maximum pain came in with a fucked up attitude. We were all being quite civil. Even DBA wasn't being as mean as he normally is.



    Yet you apparently think it's ok for MP to be a jerk and we're not supposed to get bitchy back?

    You know why you guys will never win? Because WE (DBA, Sammy, Me, Donnie, etc.) ARE ALL trying to comprimise (by opposing abortions after the first few weeks) while YOUR SIDE absolutely REFUSES to give a single inch. Most of you want us to take a few cells as a PERSON because you believe they have souls (which is quite the philosophical nonsense anyway, but that's a tangent). That's not going to happen. It is NOT a person. There ARE no souls. The middle ground will run away with this debate. There's no way extremists will win, not as long as there are reasonable people left. Curse the catholic church for this nonsense. There's nothing magical about conception. It is an ARBITRARY place on the path of developement that you people have decided is the limit. NOTHING magical happens. You just have a few cells programmed to do various operations. It's a MACHINE. NOTHING even CLOSELY resembling human behavior begins until after there is a brain.
    Win what?

    When do you oppose abortion and how many is the first few weeks.

    I don't recall anyone mentioning souls.

    A machine? Sounds just like DBA lol
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  4. #279
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    No, you would never have known anything, that is the point.
    And?

    Am I just being impossibly Zen here? It seems strange to me to freak out over the idea that your existence would take a different route than the one you're familiar with. We all gotta die sometime. Even if a first-trimester, brainless embryo counts as "you", you're dying before you have the tools to really acknowledge it as a loss.
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  5. #280
    Prophet Contributor jeffweeder's Avatar
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    Surely, if you were that Embryo you would want the chance to interact in the world that was 9 months away--love it or hate it.

    Its like a raw pizza being put into the oven and not being allowed to cook through, you knew all along it was a pizza, but went by appearances and discarded it as being unedable.
    I bet if you went to one of Demonskates BBQ'S, you would wait in anticipation of what was once raw and dead looking, knowing all along that it was going to be worth it
    f you for not giving him the chance
    And those castles made of sand,
    fall into the sea.....................
    eventually.

  6. #281
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Surely, if you were that Embryo you would want the chance to interact in the world that was 9 months away--love it or hate it.
    And for the howmanytimes, It doesn't have the brain capacity to realize that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Its like a raw pizza being put into the oven and not being allowed to cook through, you knew all along it was a pizza, but went by appearances and discarded it as being unedable.
    And just like the pizza the baby cannot realize its position since it doesn't have an brain (jet). So they wouldn't matter if it got thrown away.
    And judging food on being edible and abortion are two things that cannot be compared with each other. Unless you believe that pizzas turn into pixies when they get eaten or something like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    I bet if you went to one of Demonskates BBQ'S, you would wait in anticipation of what was once raw and dead looking, knowing all along that it was going to be worth it
    f you for not giving him the chance
    What are you talking about? looks like you accidentally edited something out here!
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  7. #282
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe View Post
    And?

    Am I just being impossibly Zen here? It seems strange to me to freak out over the idea that your existence would take a different route than the one you're familiar with. We all gotta die sometime. Even if a first-trimester, brainless embryo counts as "you", you're dying before you have the tools to really acknowledge it as a loss.
    A different route, as in being or not being, that is the question.

    Granted got to die sometime, hopefully three score and ten-ish.

    Sadly you are dying before your developing self can acknowledge it as a loss.

    Welcome back Phil Fo Where ya been?
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  8. #283
    FlatLiner Contributor DontBeAfraid's Avatar
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    Surely, if you were that Embryo you would want the chance to interact in the world that was 9 months away--love it or hate it.
    emryos want NOTHING! They dont have the capacity to experirence anything, let alone desire.
    Its like a raw pizza being put into the oven and not being allowed to cook through, you knew all along it was a pizza,
    and if you dont want the pizza for whatever reason then you can abort it.... Either way, the pizza neither knows nor cares about its existance.
    I aggressively attack stupidity... If you feel I am being aggressive, well....

  9. #284
    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe View Post
    And?

    Am I just being impossibly Zen here? It seems strange to me to freak out over the idea that your existence would take a different route than the one you're familiar with. We all gotta die sometime. Even if a first-trimester, brainless embryo counts as "you", you're dying before you have the tools to really acknowledge it as a loss.
    Ha! You're back! Boy, we missed your sanity all this time. Welcome back amigo! :)


    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    Win what?
    The legal battle with abortion. Neither of the extreme sides will EVER win.

    When do you oppose abortion and how many is the first few weeks.
    Without a DOUBT I oppose abortion when the embryo has a brain. I am considering opposing it when nerve endings are fully developed. I most DEFINATELY opposed all forms of "partial birth abortion."

    I don't recall anyone mentioning souls.
    Well, that's usually the reason the Christians object, to the best of my knowledge- because they are spirits from God, etc.

    A machine? Sounds just like DBA lol
    Actually, I thought this way before I signed up here. ALL consciousness is the product of a very VERY complex MACHINE. There's no magic with th e mind. It is purely the consequence of natural mechanisms.

    But there's nothing wrong with that! Data (Star Trek) was a machine, and no one thought less of him! We can be very complex machines without ruining everything, IMHO.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

  10. #285
    FlatLiner Contributor DontBeAfraid's Avatar
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    Data (Star Trek) was a machine, and no one thought less of him!
    uh.... starfleet command did. Dont you remember his humanity trial? Where he and the enterprise crew had to prove he was more than a toaster?

    edit: oh man... my nerd is showing.
    I aggressively attack stupidity... If you feel I am being aggressive, well....

  11. #286
    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid View Post
    uh.... starfleet command did. Dont you remember his humanity trial? Where he and the enterprise crew had to prove he was more than a toaster?

    edit: oh man... my nerd is showing.
    Damn... well, at least none of the GOOD GUYS thought less of him... right? ::is getting nervous...::

    btw, I'd take Captain Picard over Captain Kirk...
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

  12. #287
    reformed cigarette smoker Contributor Demonskates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    Damn... well, at least none of the GOOD GUYS thought less of him... right? ::is getting nervous...::

    btw, I'd take Captain Picard over Captain Kirk...
    You mean the black,gay robot?

    Death is a boring dreary affair. I highly discourage it.
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  13. #288
    Laz's Test Bunny Contributor Sammy56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBA
    edit: oh man... my nerd is showing.
    Don't worry, I was thinking that same thing.

    Not that I'm a Star Trek fan, but I always thought Data was cool.
    "As far as the stars are from Earth is the distance of your wonderfulness."

    "For there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so..." ~Shakespeare

  14. #289
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    Surely, if you were that Embryo you would want the chance to interact in the world that was 9 months away--love it or hate it.
    No. I wouldn't. Because I wouldn't have a brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    Its like a raw pizza being put into the oven and not being allowed to cook through, you knew all along it was a pizza, but went by appearances and discarded it as being unedable.
    But what if I threw it away because it had ingredients I was allergic to? Or there was way too much food in the house? Or I hate pizza, and the smell from the oven was making me ill? I'm weirding myself out with these examples, but these all correspond to real-life reasons for abortions. (Health of the mother, overpopulation, general distaste for pregnancy.)

    And... if I did throw out the pizza... would you be disgusted and angry with me? Assuming it's my pizza, I bought it and prepped it - isn't it my food, to do with as I will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    A different route, as in being or not being, that is the question.
    Right, that is the question. I just don't think the answer is quite that obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    Sadly you are dying before your developing self can acknowledge it as a loss.
    Okay, so who does acknowledge it as a loss? I mean, who acknowledges it as a loss, who has an actual stake in the situation? It's the mother's decision, and the embryo doesn't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid
    Welcome back Phil Fo Where ya been?
    Hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater
    Ha! You're back! Boy, we missed your sanity all this time. Welcome back amigo!
    Oh, right, I forgot. *clears his throat* Hi, everybody! Good to be back!
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  15. #290
    Prophet Contributor jeffweeder's Avatar
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    No. I wouldn't. Because I wouldn't have a brain.
    In hindsight----are you happy that you were allowed to develop?
    -it was always going to be you wasnt it.

    You were alive at this embryonic stage
    You were growing ,developing----would you appreciate being hacked to pieces now that you have a brain
    And those castles made of sand,
    fall into the sea.....................
    eventually.

  16. #291
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    In hindsight----are you happy that you were allowed to develop?
    In hindsight? Hindsight is relevant to an embryo how? How's this - I do not approve of people who use time-travel to convince expecting mothers in the past to abort people they don't like in the present.

    In hindsight, I'm happy I developed. But in hindsight, I'm happy I went through some stuff I wouldn't wish on anyone else, because it's made me who I am today. The ends don't justify the means; nor do they exclude all other means.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    it was always going to be you wasnt it.
    Not if I'd died before I developed, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    You were alive at this embryonic stage
    You were growing ,developing----would you appreciate being hacked to pieces now that you have a brain
    I'd be unhappy about being killed now, because I've got people who depend on me now. Aborted babies don't really have to worry about that.

    But whether I was "alive" is irrelevant. If I suffered brain damage - if the part of my brain that covered my personality was destroyed, with enough left over to keep my heart and lungs working - I'd still be alive, sure. I'd also want someone to yank the plug. That's a life, but it lacks humanity, so what's the point?
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  17. #292
    Prophet Contributor jeffweeder's Avatar
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    well I'm happy to have gotton here, even though i'm miserable lol

    The world craves individuals that will bring joy to people , A poem, a new idea. a cure, leadership-----I personally believe we are shooting ourselves in the foot by aborting someone who could make a huge difference....you are never going to know unless you let them live.
    Imagine if tom crapper, who invented the toilet was aborted, the world would be in a right mess.......
    And those castles made of sand,
    fall into the sea.....................
    eventually.

  18. #293
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    The world craves individuals that will bring joy to people , A poem, a new idea. a cure, leadership-----I personally believe we are shooting ourselves in the foot by aborting someone who could make a huge difference....you are never going to know unless you let them live.
    I'm of the opinion that everyone has something to bring to the table. If a section of the "population" is aborted, the population gets smaller, naturally - less people are giving their perception to the situation, but the perception needed to sustain the group is also smaller. If for some reason abortion was culling a particular subset - say, all the fetuses that were "supposed" to have leadership potential are aborted - then we can worry, but I don't see that as at all likely.

    Besides - one of the major things we have to worry about these days is overpopulation. It only makes sense to lessen the population to more sustainable numbers (not necessarily by abortion, but somehow). But according to your argument, lessening the population would be unethical, because that would lessen the amount of people who have input into society. That, to me, seems counterproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    Imagine if tom crapper, who invented the toilet was aborted, the world would be in a right mess.......
    Necessity is the mother of invention. I firmly believe that if the guy who invented indoor plumbing had died at a twee young age, someone else would've had the idea. If it's necessary, if it's practical, someone will come up with it.
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  19. #294
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Obviously an aborted baby can't express an opinion on being aborted , but we can. I suppose we can be divided into two camps.

    1) Those who don't mind if they were aborted because they wouldn't have known anything about it.

    2) Those that are glad they weren't aborted, even though they wouldn't have been aware of it.

    I am in camp 2.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

  20. #295
    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornish Maid View Post
    Obviously an aborted baby can't express an opinion on being aborted , but we can. I suppose we can be divided into two camps.

    1) Those who don't mind if they were aborted because they wouldn't have known anything about it.

    2) Those that are glad they weren't aborted, even though they wouldn't have been aware of it.

    I am in camp 2.
    I would like to bring something up that I don't think has been brought up yet.

    Unless the world has NO amount of chance governing it (that is, unless it is completely predetermined) then if we went back in time and gave you a fresh start as an embryo, you WOULDN'T be YOU by the time we get back to our present. You'd be someone very different.

    I believe this supports our side, in that "who you are" is definately NOT determined at conception, so I think that even if one of us were aborted, there is still a chance that an embryo made by the same two people a few months later could fill the void of "you" pretty well, assuming similar living circumstances. Thus, "you" is not something that is eternal or something that, given a restart at birth, might not even exist a second time, and also, ANOTHER embryo with similar DNA might be closer to the current "you" than a "redo" of "you" would be (you going back in time and then growing again)

    Is that written well enough to follow? (sorry- I hate the English department)
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

  21. #296
    Survivalist! MaximumPain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    I would like to bring something up that I don't think has been brought up yet.

    Unless the world has NO amount of chance governing it (that is, unless it is completely predetermined) then if we went back in time and gave you a fresh start as an embryo, you WOULDN'T be YOU by the time we get back to our present. You'd be someone very different.

    I believe this supports our side, in that "who you are" is definately NOT determined at conception, so I think that even if one of us were aborted, there is still a chance that an embryo made by the same two people a few months later could fill the void of "you" pretty well, assuming similar living circumstances. Thus, "you" is not something that is eternal or something that, given a restart at birth, might not even exist a second time, and also, ANOTHER embryo with similar DNA might be closer to the current "you" than a "redo" of "you" would be (you going back in time and then growing again)

    Is that written well enough to follow? (sorry- I hate the English department)
    I half agree with you. If you took any individual and created an exact copy and had them raised in very different environments they would turn out differently. But there would be some traits that would be the same even aside from all of the physical traits. Of course this is impossible to prove until we can start cloning people (donít even open that can of worms). That doesnít depend on the development in the womb but on those who raise you and the culture where you live. Environment has an effect on every one even those of us who are older although the effect is undoubtedly much greater the younger you are. You are not entirely determined by your environment but on a combination of environment and genetics. Any one who has had children or knows a family with more than one child by the same two parents knows that any two children can have very different personalities some of this is related to interaction and environment but some is genetic.

    I donít think that argument has anything to do with weather that small group of cells should be allowed to survive or not but we have already established our difference of opinion on that.

    Oh and for the record I am with group 2 and I would bet that most of you would rather be here than not.
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  22. #297
    Launchin' Nukes at Noobs Contributor Philosopher Foelhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumPain
    I would bet that most of you would rather be here than not.
    To be fair, I'm big on God and spirituality and all that jazz, so I tend to see what I want as irrelevant.

    But this is where I have a problem, because it seems like the stance is based on a fear of death. We'd rather be here than somewhere else because here is the only place we're aware of. Death is unknown, so it scares us. I just don't think our fears and limited perceptions should define what is right.

    After all, if you weren't alive, would you even know what you were missing?
    "If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
    - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  23. #298
    Survivalist! MaximumPain's Avatar
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    Ahhh but you are alive would you rather not be?
    Be Impeccable with Your Word
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    Don't Make Assumptions
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  24. #299
    FlatLiner Contributor DontBeAfraid's Avatar
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    Oh and for the record I am with group 2 and I would bet that most of you would rather be here than not.
    PF is just getting at the point that this is a very silly thing to consider when talking about embryos. Fear of death and death itself is only definable from the reference of existing. Ponderings on having never existed should not be and can not be logicly related to death as you know and fear it.... they are not related at all.


    I think mark twain put it best....
    "I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
    I aggressively attack stupidity... If you feel I am being aggressive, well....

  25. #300
    Survivalist! Cornish Maid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosopher Foelhe View Post
    To be fair, I'm big on God and spirituality and all that jazz, so I tend to see what I want as irrelevant.

    But this is where I have a problem, because it seems like the stance is based on a fear of death. We'd rather be here than somewhere else because here is the only place we're aware of. Death is unknown, so it scares us. I just don't think our fears and limited perceptions should define what is right.

    After all, if you weren't alive, would you even know what you were missing?
    I would say "love of life" rather than "fear of Death" as being the operative phrase.

    Maybe I have just got a sunny nature.
    The main stumbling block is the devils in the congregation. Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh

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