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Thread: What if Im wrong?

  1. #401
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    I QOUTED from Angel waters think people who hold faith in a tyrannical god do so because they hold faith they deserve to be punished for being someone they can't accept as is.
    Hi There I think thats a good reason to have a personal God, to fill the wholes in our pshyce. The vengeful God is the want of Payback for percieved injustices to the ego.

    The anger and resentment of how we feel we have been treated is directed into our God part as the avenger. Even internally it is used to cover over our defencies that we see in the self.

    That does NOT negate the fact that hell is a purely pagan concept/construct.
    Obviously you've never been to Oklahoma. as far as it Goes the concept of hell in Helenistic theories is mostly attributed to Homer and Virgil. However it wasn't they Hell of Christianity , Though Achilles did say it really sucked to be there, it was the Underworld where all souls went after death.

    I'd say 80 % of Christianity was ego driven in that they tried to put there beliefs on a par with what the Greeks ,(the most Enlightened of that time ) already believed in. When they first brought the good word to Greece they the Christians were laughed right out of the country. Lets face it Jesus was not a manly Demi God. I mean heres a god who can easily be killed/?
    So they started adding things to build the ego , like his resurrectio plus his ability to save people from the underworld. Later as the got power they used the insecurity of the self to create the thought that it was one way or the highway To HELL>.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad cowboy View Post
    The vengeful God is the want of Payback for percieved injustices to the ego.
    That would be a turn the other cheek kind of situation, the payback is for when you get killed.

    2Th:1:6:
    Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    2Th:1:7:
    And to you who are troubled rest with us,
    when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th:1:8:
    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
    and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th:1:9:
    Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,
    and from the glory of his power;

  3. #403
    Survivalist! Lillith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHz View Post
    That would be a turn the other cheek kind of situation, the payback is for when you get killed.

    2Th:1:6:
    Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    2Th:1:7:
    And to you who are troubled rest with us,
    when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th:1:8:
    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
    and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th:1:9:
    Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,
    and from the glory of his power;

    Fortunately or unfortunately, for the Apostles, Paul and Tim and the others there didnt exist at the time any science related to the study of the human mind. Today, we have various sciences devoted to human behavior, some of which can predict and/or identify those with bona fide mental diseases and personality disorders.

    We have machines like MRI that can detect brain malfunctions, hormone imbalances, tumors and other degenerative organic diseases. We have medications to appease the schizophrenics, manic depressives and psychopaths. Depression, paranoia and other anti-social behavior is now easily treated wherein people can function normally in society.
    Galadriel: "I amar prestar aen. Han mathon ne nen. Han mathon ne chae. A han noston ne 'wilith. "Translation: "The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air."

  4. #404
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    We have machines like MRI that can detect brain malfunctions, hormone imbalances, tumors and other degenerative organic diseases. We have medications to appease the schizophrenics, manic depressives and psychopaths. Depression, paranoia and other anti-social behavior is now easily treated wherein people can function normally in society.
    You might believe I know a bit about being mad, and while it's come a long way , mind science is barely more advanced than thinking its demons in your body. For say depression a very very common Illness? First off almost everyone to a degree has some level of depression. The trick like all mental problems is to discover the individual level of Psychosis. Then design the proper course of therapy, mostly designed to make the human able to function in their environment as half way normal-ish.

    Way to often the cure is to throw pharmaceuticals at the problems. Since it's big money to push the drugs this has become the foremost treatment available. While the brain candy may make you feel better at first , it leads to long term dependencies along with a lifetime of side effects. The body constantly fights the medicines , so the tolerance levels are constantly changing . So what makes you feel good today , wont do anything at all the next ( Go ask Alice)

    Most of us spend our adult lives looking for this brain candy anyway, so when given the chance it's very easy to jump on board the pharma-train to blissville. However few who get on the train ever get off. From mommies zanex to the kiddies ritalin we can now be zombified from cradle to grave. As Richard Pryor said " I been to prison , and all I can say is thank god there are prisons " meaning there are some people who are really better off taking the drugs.

    Just like the born againers who tell you there life of debauchery until god saved them. I mean hey if your out of society that is always a good step. Just like the drugs the first thing is public safety. We got to keep the loonies off the grass.

    However to say there is much more enlightenment in doping up , as religion is debatable. As always a third choice is better. Self enlightenment through study of the problem, by looking both for the science available , and inside finding the degree of your problem, if you think it's to big , consult a professional immediately. But dont Just take there word for it , that would be stupid like believing everything in a book is true , even when you know it has provable errors.

    If I had a point it would be that no science does not have all the answers either. and the other point is that after my lobotomy I always feel like something is missing. Peace B.

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillith View Post
    Fortunately or unfortunately, for the Apostles, Paul and Tim and the others there didnt exist at the time any science related to the study of the human mind. Today, we have various sciences devoted to human behavior, some of which can predict and/or identify those with bona fide mental diseases and personality disorders.

    We have machines like MRI that can detect brain malfunctions, hormone imbalances, tumors and other degenerative organic diseases. We have medications to appease the schizophrenics, manic depressives and psychopaths. Depression, paranoia and other anti-social behavior is now easily treated wherein people can function normally in society.
    Sounds like you want to cure the Jerusalem Syndrome with T.E.N.S. machine hooked up to the temples (and probably other places)

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad cowboy View Post
    Hi There I think thats a good reason to have a personal God, to fill the wholes in our pshyce. The vengeful God is the want of Payback for percieved injustices to the ego.

    The anger and resentment of how we feel we have been treated is directed into our God part as the avenger. Even internally it is used to cover over our defencies that we see in the self.

    Obviously you've never been to Oklahoma. as far as it Goes the concept of hell in Helenistic theories is mostly attributed to Homer and Virgil. However it wasn't they Hell of Christianity , Though Achilles did say it really sucked to be there, it was the Underworld where all souls went after death.

    I'd say 80 % of Christianity was ego driven in that they tried to put there beliefs on a par with what the Greeks ,(the most Enlightened of that time ) already believed in. When they first brought the good word to Greece they the Christians were laughed right out of the country. Lets face it Jesus was not a manly Demi God. I mean heres a god who can easily be killed/?
    So they started adding things to build the ego , like his resurrectio plus his ability to save people from the underworld. Later as the got power they used the insecurity of the self to create the thought that it was one way or the highway To HELL>.

    Hell is an interesting concept in Christianity. Especially considering the faith is referred to as a Judeo-Christian. When, in Judaism, there is no Hell. Only Sheol. Which is nothing like that fiery torment described in the NT.

    However, there was a Pagan Goddess of the underworld, ancient Sumeria if I'm not mistaken, who was called Hel.
    Perhaps it's a compilation of that and how Jesus described it being a place of fire and brimstone, when all the tribes of folks to whom he was speaking in ancient Palestine knew well enough what Gehenna was.
    A fiery tormented acrid place where garbage and the bodies of the poor were burned.

    Imagine trying to convince converts to the new ideology, by instilling a fear paradigm the likes of that visual, into ignorant people of the time.

    Accept the new covenant or burn for eternity like unto what you smell and see on a regular basis at Gehenna.

    Fear paradigm, tyrannical omni-God, rewards after life for supplication and self-deprecation during life, all because one first accepts they're damned at birth for being human. And as a consequence must be saved from the God that created them sinner, in the flesh, bearing the curse of the first of our kind upon themselves till they either find God and redeem themselves for how God made them. Or they don't and suffer because God judged them worthy of Hell, for being guilty as sinners when that's what he made possible by failing to forgive the first mistake the first of our kind made in the Garden.

    Omnibenevolent?

    Hardly.

    What's not so funny is, the soul originates from Heaven. And as such is then damned in the flesh at birth, being a natural born original sinner.

    So, the irony then is, abortion saves!
    So that the innocent soul can return to the paradise from whence it sprang. Without being fouled at the quickening so as to be born in sin.

    Which then makes that newborn property of Satan first. Since sin is his domain.


    I once watched a video wherein a minister said, you have to set aside the intellect in order to be a Christian.

    No kidding!
    It doesn't take a lot to see that. One has to accept the position of serf, or slave, in order to worship a master like Bible God.
    A tyrant that makes the whole sin paradigm a reality and, being all knowing, watches as the humans hope to escape their predestination.



    Christianity - The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Waters View Post
    Hell is an interesting concept in Christianity. Especially considering the faith is referred to as a Judeo-Christian. When, in Judaism, there is no Hell. Only Sheol. Which is nothing like that fiery torment described in the NT.
    Wrong. There are even 4 qualities that hell has. If they aren't listed they don't exist, the 4 given cover the descriptions without adding in extra punishments.

    Da:12:1:
    And at that time shall Michael stand up,
    the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
    and there shall be a time of trouble,
    such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
    and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
    every one that shall be found written in the book.
    Da:12:2:
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    some to everlasting life,
    and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Isa:65:13:
    Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
    Behold,
    my servants shall eat,
    but ye shall be hungry:
    behold,
    my servants shall drink,
    but ye shall be thirsty:
    behold,
    my servants shall rejoice,
    but ye shall be ashamed:
    Isa:65:14:
    Behold,
    my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
    but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
    and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

    M't:25:41:
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
    Depart from me,
    ye cursed,
    into everlasting fire,
    prepared for the devil and his angels:

    M't:25:46:
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
    but the righteous into life eternal.

    Everlasting for fallen angels is the little season Satan has after the 1,000 reign, everlasting punishment for men lasts until the Great White Throne event. Nobody in 'hell' for the 1,000 years that can look on a chained Satan (Isa:14) is released from there so the being cast to the fiery lake does nor affect even these worst of all sinners. Their crime, being in the 2/3 that are dressed for war on the day Jesus returns.

    Zec:14:12:
    And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;
    Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet,
    and their eyes shall consume away in their holes,
    and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

    Jerusalem being the two witnesses in Re:11 and the dead will be the ones that pass gifts back and forth.

    However, there was a Pagan Goddess of the underworld, ancient Sumeria if I'm not mistaken, who was called Hel.
    Perhaps it's a compilation of that and how Jesus described it being a place of fire and brimstone, when all the tribes of folks to whom he was speaking in ancient Palestine knew well enough what Gehenna was.
    A fiery tormented acrid place where garbage and the bodies of the poor were burned.
    Then again maybe not, it would be like saying a flood that came overland from a rising sea level is the same as one that came from 20ft of rain over the period of a month. Close only works in horse-shoes and hand-grenades.

    Imagine trying to convince converts to the new ideology, by instilling a fear paradigm the likes of that visual, into ignorant people of the time.
    It shows that the Christian Church Leaders came to be like the Levite Temple Leaders, off track to what the instructions from God were. There would be no 'Church Industry' if the message was 'every person gets top enter the new earth, with some study you can increase the odds of you being picked for a 'bonus early-bird draw' that is a bonus 1,000 years and a big fireworks show at the end of this earth that also marks the start of the new earth.

    Accept the new covenant or burn for eternity like unto what you smell and see on a regular basis at Gehenna.
    You could only buy that version if you heard it from somebody who is faking what the Scriptures actually say. For instance the fire in the lake is at surface level, it doesn't go all the way too the bottom but it does prevent those beneath the waves from being able to 'surface'. The closest men come is the 'hell' part and that would be like being on the shore of the lake, close enough to feel the heat that causes the eternal thirst.
    Conditions for an immortal in hell means they will get to feel pain as described in the 5th trump and injury as in the 6th trump but without the relief of death. Each day (or death) starts a new round that always ends up the same. The goal is to get many before somebody gets you.

    Fear paradigm, tyrannical omni-God, rewards after life for supplication and self-deprecation during life, all because one first accepts they're damned at birth for being human. And as a consequence must be saved from the God that created them sinner, in the flesh, bearing the curse of the first of our kind upon themselves till they either find God and redeem themselves for how God made them. Or they don't and suffer because God judged them worthy of Hell, for being guilty as sinners when that's what he made possible by failing to forgive the first mistake the first of our kind made in the Garden.
    How is following the 2 laws (as described) part of "self-deprecation during life"? Christians are warned about the lure of material things and to not to get so attached to them that they become more important to you that you cannot leave them at a moments notice and not look back. (along the lines of Lot's escape from Sodom, a small hesitation will cost you your life) God does expect a 'rich Christian' to make sure his servants/employees are treated very fairly.

    Omnibenevolent?

    Hardly.
    Don't mistake keeping to the schedule as a sign of lack of actual power to do the things written about.

    2Pe:3:9:
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,
    as some men count slackness;
    but is longsuffering to us-ward,
    not willing that any should perish,
    but that all should come to repentance.

    1Co:4:20:
    For the kingdom of God is not in word,
    but in power.

    What's not so funny is, the soul originates from Heaven. And as such is then damned in the flesh at birth, being a natural born original sinner.
    That's true, the spirit of God in man is called the breath of life, that part returns to God but we are not aware of being there, it is a deep sleep for the person, sinner and saint.

    Ec:3:20:
    All go unto one place;
    all are of the dust,
    and all turn to dust again.
    Ec:12:7:
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
    and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    On the day Jesus returns 2/3 of the world's living have the breath of life taken away yet the breath of life does not leave them, they enter the grave still being 'with the dust of the earth'. The time they spend there counts as serving their punishment period so that when they come out of that 'tribulation' God can see them as being x-sinners, just in time to enter the new earth.

    So, the irony then is, abortion saves!
    So that the innocent soul can return to the paradise from whence it sprang. Without being fouled at the quickening so as to be born in sin.
    Men count birth at first breath (even 7 days in some cultures), God counts it at conception so all abortions, mis carriages, still births will have those persons standing at the end of the Great White Throne. Another thing the Bible promotes but the Church Industry is quiet about as it could cut their profits. The Bible was to be made available to raed by all believers, that means read and discuss and in a short time the full truth is 'apparent' and the Bible can be given to somebody else for their learning purposes, the industry life-long study and too complicated for the flock is all bullshit and it is the flocks own fault. Stop filling the collection plates weekly and watch how fast the changes are made from the top down. (like get somebody younger than the grave itself, 100M dash in less than 12sec rather than the 12 min and 'will he even make it factor'.

    Which then makes that newborn property of Satan first. Since sin is his domain.
    New borns are without sin, when they die they end up in the sleepy part of death, the torment part is only available for men who have had the opportunity to run their mouths off about God.

    Ec:9:10:
    Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,
    do it with thy might;
    for there is no work,
    nor device,
    nor knowledge,
    nor wisdom,
    in the grave,
    whither thou goest.

    I once watched a video wherein a minister said, you have to set aside the intellect in order to be a Christian.

    No kidding!
    I once watch a drive where the guy was accepting silverware if you didn't have actual money, I sent him the broken TV, ..... collect.
    The Bible warns about liars and deception, if you get taken or believe an obvious lie you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. A priest couldn't pass-off a false sermon if the flock was informed, nor would he chance it if donations at the end were based what they thought of the sermon compared to what the Scriptures promote. Nor does the Church Industry even allow question from the flock at the weekly meetings. The flock has some duties itself as far as being on the right path and if they slack off they have nobody but themselves to blame when they find they are part of the 2/3 that don't make it through the 7 vials rather than being part of the elect that don't make it.

    It doesn't take a lot to see that. One has to accept the position of serf, or slave, in order to worship a master like Bible God.
    A tyrant that makes the whole sin paradigm a reality and, being all knowing, watches as the humans hope to escape their predestination.
    You have more to fear from the ones it warns about than some fucked up priests. They were 'cargo' on the boats that first sailed around the world planting flags that claimed the land and the people as being 'possessions'. The ones that will accept the mark will be merchants.

    Re:15:1:
    And I saw another sign in heaven,
    great and marvellous,
    seven angels having the seven last plagues;
    for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
    Re:15:2:
    And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
    and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
    and over his image,
    and over his mark,
    and over the number of his name,
    stand on the sea of glass,
    having the harps of God.

    Re:18:9:
    And the kings of the earth,
    who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her,
    shall bewail her,
    and lament for her,
    when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
    Re:18:10:
    Standing afar off for the fear of her torment,
    saying,
    Alas,
    alas,
    that great city Babylon,
    that mighty city!
    for in one hour is thy judgment come.
    Re:18:11:
    And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her;
    for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
    Re:18:12:
    The merchandise of gold,
    and silver,
    and precious stones,
    and of pearls,
    and fine linen,
    and purple,
    and silk,
    and scarlet,
    and all thyine wood,
    and all manner vessels of ivory,
    and all manner vessels of most precious wood,
    and of brass,
    and iron,
    and marble,
    Re:18:13:
    And cinnamon,
    and odours,
    and ointments,
    and frankincense,
    and wine,
    and oil,
    and fine flour,
    and wheat,
    and beasts,
    and sheep,
    and horses,
    and chariots,
    and slaves,
    and souls of men.
    Re:18:14:
    And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee,
    and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee,
    and thou shalt find them no more at all.

    It isn't a 'fallen Church' that persecuted peeople in the end, it is the sword that Jesus left to the Nations that turns evil when it inflicts evil on the ones it is supposed to protect.

    Jer:25:33:
    And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
    they shall not be lamented,
    neither gathered,
    nor buried;
    they shall be dung upon the ground.
    Jer:25:34:
    Howl,
    ye shepherds,
    and cry;
    and wallow yourselves in the ashes,
    ye principal of the flock:
    for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished;
    and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
    Jer:25:35:
    And the shepherds shall have no way to flee,
    nor the principal of the flock to escape.
    Jer:25:36:
    A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
    and an howling of the principal of the flock,
    shall be heard:
    for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.
    Jer:25:37:
    And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

    Re:6:4:
    And there went out another horse that was red:
    and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
    and that they should kill one another:
    and there was given unto him a great sword.

  8. #408
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    Qoute by Angel Waters Christianity - The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
    Marry Me? Ok well nice quotes anyway.

  9. #409
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    http://www.crystalinks.com/hopi2.html

    Just to show you what a real doomer's prophecy looks like MHZ

    My people await Pahana, the lost White Brother, [from the stars] as do all our brothers in the land. He will not be like the white men we know now, who are cruel and greedy. we were told of their coming long ago. But still we await Pahana.

    "He will bring with him the symbols, and the missing piece of that sacred tablet now kept by the elders, given to him when he left, that shall identify him as our True White Brother.

    "The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.

    "This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder.

    "This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. In his youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes -- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies."

    "This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his eyes -- the coming of the white men's cattle."

    "This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron."

    "This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web."

    "This is the Sixth sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun."

    "This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it."

    "This is the Eight Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom.

    "And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease.

    "These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying.

    "Many of my people, understanding the prophecies, shall be safe. Those who stay and live in the places of my people also shall be safe. Then there will be much to rebuild. And soon -- very soon afterward -- Pahana will return. He shall bring with him the dawn of the Fifth World. He shall plant the seeds of his wisdom in their hearts. Even now the seeds are being planted. These shall smooth the way to the Emergence into the Fifth World.

  10. #410
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    Get real, even if I tell you beforehand that these are the 'good guys' you wouldn't want to wee them in your streets.

    Joe:2:1-11:
    Blow ye the trumpet in Zion,
    and sound an alarm in my holy mountain:
    let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:
    for the day of the LORD cometh,
    for it is nigh at hand;
    A day of darkness and of gloominess,
    a day of clouds and of thick darkness,
    as the morning spread upon the mountains:
    a great people and a strong;
    there hath not been ever the like,
    neither shall be any more after it,
    even to the years of many generations.
    A fire devoureth before them;
    and behind them a flame burneth:
    the land is as the garden of Eden before them,
    and behind them a desolate wilderness;
    yea,
    and nothing shall escape them.
    The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses;
    and as horsemen,
    so shall they run.
    Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap,
    like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble,
    as a strong people set in battle array.
    Before their face the people shall be much pained:
    all faces shall gather blackness.
    They shall run like mighty men;
    they shall climb the wall like men of war;
    and they shall march every one on his ways,
    and they shall not break their ranks:
    Neither shall one thrust another;
    they shall walk every one in his path:
    and when they fall upon the sword,
    they shall not be wounded.
    They shall run to and fro in the city;
    they shall run upon the wall,
    they shall climb up upon the houses;
    they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
    The earth shall quake before them;
    the heavens shall tremble:
    the sun and the moon shall be dark,
    and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
    And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army:
    for his camp is very great:
    for he is strong that executeth his word:
    for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
    and who can abide it?

  11. #411
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    Originally Posted by Angel Waters
    Hell is an interesting concept in Christianity. Especially considering the faith is referred to as a Judeo-Christian. When, in Judaism, there is no Hell. Only Sheol. Which is nothing like that fiery torment described in the NT.
    MHz Reply: Wrong. There are even 4 qualities that hell has. If they aren't listed they don't exist, the 4 given cover the descriptions without adding in extra punishments.
    And yet, that description in Daniel isn't at all in keeping with that what is described of the NT version of Hell.
    Not to mention the historical problems with the Book of Daniel. (PDF Link)

    Which is part of the issue overall when discussing the errancy that is afforded within the Bible.

    Judaism: Is There a Hell?(Article Link)
    Rabbi Aron Moss





    AW Quote:However, there was a Pagan Goddess of the underworld, ancient Sumeria if I'm not mistaken, who was called Hel.
    Perhaps it's a compilation of that and how Jesus described it being a place of fire and brimstone, when all the tribes of folks to whom he was speaking in ancient Palestine knew well enough what Gehenna was.
    A fiery tormented acrid place where garbage and the bodies of the poor were burned.
    Your reply: Then again maybe not, it would be like saying a flood that came overland from a rising sea level is the same as one that came from 20ft of rain over the period of a month. Close only works in horse-shoes and hand-grenades.

    Well, perhaps that statement makes sense in your world. However, the Bible is a compilation of the efforts of over 40 different authors.
    The autographs are no longer available. The Bible is errant, and as such with 40 different authors contributing to what numerous councils elected to be the closed canon, one never knows what sources were used to make what is todays "word of God".
    So titled after councils of men elected themselves entitled to act as editors in chief. Thereby causing to come into being, given the whole of that what was allegedly inspired by the holy spirit, the closed canon and the apocrypha.

    Fascinating really. God spoke to man. Man elected what was worthy of print.




    AW Quote: Imagine trying to convince converts to the new ideology, by instilling a fear paradigm the likes of that visual, into ignorant people of the time.
    Your reply: It shows that the Christian Church Leaders came to be like the Levite Temple Leaders, off track to what the instructions from God were. There would be no 'Church Industry' if the message was 'every person gets top enter the new earth, with some study you can increase the odds of you being picked for a 'bonus early-bird draw' that is a bonus 1,000 years and a big fireworks show at the end of this earth that also marks the start of the new earth.


    Except the whole of the instruction for salvation begins with being saved from God.
    Who bestowed the plight of sinner upon his creation on purpose.
    And then levies judgment for being human, bearing a deficit as sinner, all the days of one's life. So that even after one is saved, they can still sin.

    Sin and Hell were created by an omniscient God.
    Free Will does not exist. When omniscience judges the actions of people with severity or grace, depending on the choices they make.

    Free Will did not exist in the Garden either. Adam and Eve were ignorant. They were incapable of choosing to obey or disobey God. They were not made aware, or cognizant of electing to obey or disobey, until after they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
    A tree that omniscient God planted in paradise and then forbid them.
    And why? Because to eat of that fruit and the fruit of eternal life, would make the first humans like unto God.
    However, they were already so because they were created in his image and likeness.
    So God forbid humans to have knowledge, but did not forbid eternal life. (the tree of life that was also planted in the garden).

    Once they possessed knowledge they were damned as sinners. Not because they disobeyed, because that was not something they could have consciously done, knowing the consequence between good/obedience and evil/disobedience.

    And then, even after drowning the whole world of sinners, the one family left to repopulate the earth did so bearing new sinners to life.

    And generations later, eternal life was made possible, when God sent himself to lift the curse he set himself, if people would only accept that torture and murder on a Roman capital punishment device, was proof of God's love for them.

    When, proof of God's love could have been exampled in the Garden. When God didn't prove he preferred humans to remain ignorant, rather than have knowledge such as he possessed. Which was knowledge of good and evil. Which is fitting considering God is the source of both.
    (Isaiah 45:7)

    Angel Waters Quote:Accept the new covenant or burn for eternity like unto what you smell and see on a regular basis at Gehenna.
    Your reply: You could only buy that version if you heard it from somebody who is faking what the Scriptures actually say...

    It's what the scriptures say.Reoeatedly.

    Matthew 10:28 (ESV)

    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.




    Angel Quote: Fear paradigm, tyrannical omni-God, rewards after life for supplication and self-deprecation during life, all because one first accepts they're damned at birth for being human. And as a consequence must be saved from the God that created them sinner, in the flesh, bearing the curse of the first of our kind upon themselves till they either find God and redeem themselves for how God made them. Or they don't and suffer because God judged them worthy of Hell, for being guilty as sinners when that's what he made possible by failing to forgive the first mistake the first of our kind made in the Garden.
    Your Reply:How is following the 2 laws (as described) part of "self-deprecation during life"? Christians are warned about the lure of material things and to not to get so attached to them that they become more important to you that you cannot leave them at a moments notice and not look back. (along the lines of Lot's escape from Sodom, a small hesitation will cost you your life) God does expect a 'rich Christian' to make sure his servants/employees are treated very fairly.
    There are over 600 laws of God.

    AW Quote:Omnibenevolent?

    Hardly.
    Your replyon't mistake keeping to the schedule as a sign of lack of actual power to do the things written about. I've read the Bible. Omni-benevolent isn't a factor.



    AW Quote:So, the irony then is, abortion saves!
    So that the innocent soul can return to the paradise from whence it sprang. Without being fouled at the quickening so as to be born in sin.

    Your Reply:Men count birth at first breath (even 7 days in some cultures), God counts it at conception...

    God counts a living soul as when the fetus takes it's first breath.

    Genesis 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    AW Quote: I once watched a video wherein a minister said, you have to set aside the intellect in order to be a Christian.

    No kidding!
    Your Reply:I once watch a drive where the guy was accepting silverware if you didn't have actual money, I sent him the broken TV, ..... collect.
    The interesting part of your story there is that you're talking about sending that broken TV COD.
    The thing about COD is, the sender (you) has to pay the shipping first. And then when the recipient pays for the package, that shipping fee is refunded to the shipper.
    So you paid the freight and if/when that guy refused your broken TV, you lost money and actually paid to dispose of a broken TV. :)
    Bad allegory. Try again?



    (I tried to reply with the multi-quote option, but it seemed not to work so I tried to make due.)

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad cowboy View Post
    Hi There I think thats a good reason to have a personal God, to fill the wholes in our pshyce. The vengeful God is the want of Payback for percieved injustices to the ego.
    And yet isn't it all a matter of the psyche in the first place, when one finds need of creating a personal God to help them through real life?

    An invisible ally, whether derived from the Bible or compiled into a character one can accept and respect. It all boils down to holding faith something invisible empathizes with you personally.

    And given all the religions on earth, all the believers in invisible omnipotence, all the supplicants, the prayers beseeching for salvation from their day to day, what's the result?
    All that faith in something only hoped to be there. While living very real lives.
    Circular logic reiterates the myth. Self-deprecation instills the status of lesser being dependent on higher power. And yet, it's all derived from faith. Which precludes fact.

    You'd do better to believe in yourself.



    Obviously you've never been to Oklahoma.
    Obviously. ;)
    Last edited by Angel Waters; Mar 25th, 2012 at 5:37 PM. Reason: typo fix

  13. #413
    הלראות Contributor Beatnik Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Water
    Hardly.

    What's not so funny is, the soul originates from Heaven. And as such is then damned in the flesh at birth, being a natural born original sinner.

    So, the irony then is, abortion saves!
    So that the innocent soul can return to the paradise from whence it sprang. Without being fouled at the quickening so as to be born in sin.
    That is funny.


    Quote Originally Posted by MHz
    Wrong.
    Actually, he is right.

    There is no hell in Judaism or the Tanakh.

    No one is tortured in an afterlife for what they do.
    However, as judgement, it is/was supposed that God might end your life... Thus sending you to she'ol.

    Despite the fact that she'ol is not hell, it is still considered to be "non-preferable" to be killed.
    Poetry is superior to history -Aristotle
    True time is four dimensional -Heidegger
    All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players -Shakespeare

  14. #414
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad cowboy View Post
    Hi There I think thats a good reason to have a personal God, to fill the wholes in our pshyce. The vengeful God is the want of Payback for percieved injustices to the ego.
    And yet isn't it all a matter of the psyche in the first place, when one finds need of creating a personal God to help them through real life?

    An invisible ally, whether derived from the Bible or compiled into a character one can accept and respect. It all boils down to holding faith something invisible empathizes with you personally.

    And given all the religions on earth, all the believers in invisible omnipotence, all the supplicants, the prayers beseeching for salvation from their day to day, what's the result?
    All that faith in something only hoped to be there. While living very real lives.
    Circular logic reiterates the myth. Self-deprecation instills the status of lesser being dependent on higher power. And yet, it's all derived from faith. Which precludes fact.

    You'd do better to believe in yourself.



    Obviously you've never been to Oklahoma.
    Obviously. ;)
    My thing is I have spent time in Oklahoma , so I know its real. The same with My self I don't have to believe I AM. I also know that my IAm is not omni=potent. No man is an island entire of itself; every man
    is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
    if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
    is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
    well as a manor of thy friends or of thine


    own were; any man's death diminishes me,
    because I am involved in mankind.
    And therefore never send to know for whom
    the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
    John Donne
    While i can accept that I am this little tiny speck of life in both time and size hurdling around a tiny round rock , following a small sun that has been blazing through a small galaxy in a massive universe for billions of years , while my whole lifespan is not even a galactic tick of time.

    but when I think of it that way It leads me more into what Crowley said "Do What Thou Wilt" because it couldn't possibly matter to anyone . I think repercussions for our actions are good . I don't need a God for mercy , Its like the bear and the Preacher, To make it short a bear traps a preacher up a tree, and the preacher in prayer says lord , you helped Daniel in the lions Den, You helped Moses part the sea. I know I don't deserve all that , but If you cant Help me , PLEASE dont help that bear.

    Since what we are talking about is belief I'm happy with reincarnation, I like that I AM an eternal soul, that means I was never created because I always was. However I'm still an evolving,being. The center of the universe , and not even a speck on a speck of it I can see the concept that a God would know me personal a long shot indeed.

    I totally agree sky Gods/ Aliens are dangerous and if you look through history , they've only caused misery, Destruction and Slavery. Mostly anyway, I think Quetzalcoatl was a pretty good alien/god as was Osiris. Being his own grandpa aside Jesus was enlightened. and Hey lets face it Buddha is good.if not the best. In fact as I say I AM a buttist, as in I'd be a Buddhist but I dont believe in organized religion.

    Your right I the center of his universe should believe more in self. The bigger point is EVERYONE has to believe in something, even if you believe in nothing thats a belief.

  15. #415
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    Sorry about the above rant, I know your thinking this guy thinks he's hot snot, but he's really cold buggers. I should of said Hey I've seen God or at least the definition of a higher power , in my life many times. i can choose to follow , I just dont like following. If it makes you happier know that I Am part god myself, So If I did worship I'd have to worship partly my self which is creepy.

    I've always had God, ghosts angels or devils, following me . saving my life many times, I just cannot disbelieve what I've seen. Or refuse to be thankful. I appreciate whoever whatever help I can get, and I need all the help I can. Peace B.

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    Rant away!Buggers and snot not withstanding.

    I can say I've witnessed some interesting things in my life. Enough to know there is more than the human consciousness can put into words.
    Which is why God is part of that very issue, in my opinion. A being superior to humans would be impossible for our limited consciousness to comprehend. Ergo, we witness supreme beings that are actually just like us. Especially is the case with Bible God.

    Not really surprising. The first humans looked into a pool of water and wondered what it meant to see themselves. To witness a woman give birth and not die of blood loss. (though some surely did) And to then feed that newborn from her own body. To watch the skies darken and lights crack the sky open, while thunder shook the ground, must have all been overwhelming to the primitive mind.

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    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    Which is why God is part of that very issue, in my opinion. A being superior to humans would be impossible for our limited consciousness to comprehend.
    That's just ego talking, do you think we are the supreme beings on this planet? You don't think the tree could easily make the argument that it is far superior to the critters that came from his limbs?

    what we cannot accept is that we feel we are a special being , Hot snots, but we have inhabited this planet for barely a geological tick. And the way things look well never last , and next the insects will think they were created in the image.

    god is actually very simple so simple we have to complicate it to match the Ego. What you see as the primitive mind is actually through the eyes of a child. Do you think a baby born today is any more or less amazed at it's birth than the very first child? This awareness of life is in everything , not primitive , but primordial every critter that's ever lived has thought it was pretty special.

    They're all right, life is very special. I am grateful to even get this chance to use thumbs, and have a giant brain, that I barely use. I have to admit we are on a good spot on the food circle, I'm thankful I'm not prey, which is in = major way thanks to the old giant brain. I know someday I'll be critter food so someday the circle of life will complete itself.

    These are kind of Earth God thoughts I mean primitive thinking is all about the great provider Even Ghia Who's name hasn't even been mentioned on this thread. Mother Earth. like realizing we live off the earth ' there's the complication, all the little things that happened to make any life possible.

    for further reading I'd think about doing the old going out and getting some nature in you/we us. Meaning me too , the real step is probably going primitive, find out that we are a part of nature. Its a little ego blow but we are a critter on speck of dust in a giant cosmos.

  18. #418
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad cowboy View Post
    what we cannot accept is that we feel we are a special being , Hot snots, but we have inhabited this planet for barely a geological tick. And the way things look well never last
    We our special bro. We are humans; the top of the food chain. We've created beautiful sounds. Monuments that will last forever. We've made so many crazy advances in our time. We are capable of great compassion and have the ability to literally save the world. Don't let our faults make you completely blind to the good we can and have accomplished. Some where along the way we just forgot how to act. Humans wont be removed off this earth unless we do it ourselves, mother nature, or an outside threat(meteors, maybe aliens who knows). Who knows, if we pull through this dumb era we might even have solutions to mother nature and asteroid strikes. That is how powerful we are. Don't lose faith in us yet.
    Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

  19. #419
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    QOUTE from BOY We our special bro. We are humans; the top of the food chain. We've created beautiful sounds. Monuments that will last forever.
    Are you talking about the Pyramids? Did we even build them? All the evidence of man ever being here including our beautiful sounds , will all pass.

    We are probably the first species Advanced enough to be able to destroy all life on the planet at will, this doesn't make us special , just very dangerous. if you like dangerous then we are special, we have been trained to think we are above nature , even that we can bend it to our will, make it our b- iatche. This is sky god thinking , probably a left over from the days we were engineered by the Anunaki. Or maybe its a trait left in us by the Elohim?

    We would be a much better species if we learned to be a part of nature as opposed to destined to conquer it. As far as asteroid strike look around , it happens. Man survived for millions of years? without the innovations we think are necessary . Critters have been on this planet for a long time that never even felt the need for science. It's probably thumbs, we think we are the master builders , we get awful proud of our cities but don't pay attention to ants and termites who were building their cities while we were discovering that Fire is good,. We say theres levels like the use of tools. Yet I wacth Spiders they use tools as bait, using leafs to dress up the web, make it more attractive to food.

    You say hey we made it first to space, wrong by a more than a few million years. The seed has traveled in space and survived to reproduce . Amazing the seed , it can take extreme cold , pressure dont bother it, it can go dormant for years and then get just the right soil rain and sun and its off for life. Lets see a human baby do that.

    I do like humans, just the were so special bit makes me laugh. Of course life is life so in that we are special, to bad we have the self destructive mind set.
    Last edited by mad cowboy; Mar 27th, 2012 at 9:36 AM. Reason: dveil made me

  20. #420
    הלראות Contributor Beatnik Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boy View Post
    We our special bro. We are humans; the top of the food chain. We've created beautiful sounds. Monuments that will last forever. We've made so many crazy advances in our time. We are capable of great compassion and have the ability to literally save the world. Don't let our faults make you completely blind to the good we can and have accomplished. Some where along the way we just forgot how to act. Humans wont be removed off this earth unless we do it ourselves, mother nature, or an outside threat(meteors, maybe aliens who knows). Who knows, if we pull through this dumb era we might even have solutions to mother nature and asteroid strikes. That is how powerful we are. Don't lose faith in us yet.
    But ultimately, all of that is contained by one miniscule blue dot near the edge of one of hundreds of galaxies...

    And yet we think what we do or do not do on this microscopic particle is of utmost importance.



    To the meteor question... That is eventually inevitable unless we were to colonize other planets. You cannot survive indefinitely by keeping "all of your eggs in one basket."
    Poetry is superior to history -Aristotle
    True time is four dimensional -Heidegger
    All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players -Shakespeare

  21. #421
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad cowboy View Post
    Are you talking about the Pyramids? Did we even build them? All the evidence of man ever being here including our beautiful sounds , will all pass.

    We are probably the first species Advanced enough to be able to destroy all life on the planet at will, this doesn't make us special , just very dangerous. if you like dangerous then we are special, we have been trained to think we are above nature , even that we can bend it to our will, make it our b- iatche. This is sky god thinking , probably a left over from the days we were engineered by the Anunaki. Or maybe its a trait left in us by the Elohim?

    We would be a much better species if we learned to be a part of nature as opposed to destined to conquer it. As far as asteroid strike look around , it happens. Man survived for millions of years? without the innovations we think are necessary . Critters have been on this planet for a long time that never even felt the need for science. It's probably thumbs, we think we are the master builders , we get awful proud of our cities but don't pay attention to ants and termites who were building their cities while we were discovering that Fire is good,. We say theres levels like the use of tools. Yet I wacth Spiders they use tools as bait, using leafs to dress up the web, make it more attractive to food.

    You say hey we made it first to space, wrong by a more than a few million years. The seed has traveled in space and survived to reproduce . Amazing the seed , it can take extreme cold , pressure dont bother it, it can go dormant for years and then get just the right soil rain and sun and its off for life. Lets see a human baby do that.

    I do like humans, just the were so special bit makes me laugh. Of course life is life so in that we are special, to bad we have the self destructive mind set.
    I don't feel like naming any of the great monuments that have been created by man, and we know it for a fact. You should know anyway. Being a part of nature is beautiful. And i know of all the things animals on this earth are capable of. But do you honestly think they are better than us. We use our resources here on earth better then any other species. I said it myself bro; we are using our greatness dumb. Again we can fix our mistakes. All of are wrong we can right. So why do you continue to go on with this destruction thing. I know what we do, i'm talking about what we can and should be doing... And just cause we are being dumb doesn't mean we haven't done great things.
    Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

  22. #422
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    But do you honestly think they are better than us. We use our resources here on earth better then any other species. I said it myself bro; we are using our greatness dumb. Again we can fix our mistakes. All of are wrong we can right. So why do you continue to go on with this destruction thing.
    your kidding right? Name me one thing we can fix. One thing. I don't know where you look for news but the planet as we knew it is beyond fixing. we and maybe circumstance has brought it way past any point of fixing. as the scientist say what's left is to adapt mitigate and suffer. Say we would stop using gas. this will help eventually but we have enough carbon already in the atmosphere to last a few hundred years. Or the even bigger problem the acidification of the oceans. You want something that will last forever there's the lake in Russia http://www.kirps.com/web/main/_blog/...-minutes.shtml or how about the Pacific garbage patch, or Atlantic. you fix that humanity and I'll kiss your butt.

  23. #423
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad cowboy View Post
    your kidding right? Name me one thing we can fix. One thing. I don't know where you look for news but the planet as we knew it is beyond fixing. we and maybe circumstance has brought it way past any point of fixing. as the scientist say what's left is to adapt mitigate and suffer. Say we would stop using gas. this will help eventually but we have enough carbon already in the atmosphere to last a few hundred years. Or the even bigger problem the acidification of the oceans. You want something that will last forever there's the lake in Russia http://www.kirps.com/web/main/_blog/...-minutes.shtml or how about the Pacific garbage patch, or Atlantic. you fix that humanity and I'll kiss your butt.
    Hey bro you're very right. But lets not quit. In the NBA when your down 30, 50, or whatever; you just don't quit. You keep pushing. I'm down for whatever i got to do to save my home. Sorry if i didn't make that statement you quoted clear. I meant we can try. Not we have all the solutions. But certainly we can fix everything if we just give it 100%.
    Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

  24. #424
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    But ultimately, all of that is contained by one miniscule blue dot near the edge of one of hundreds of galaxies...

    And yet we think what we do or do not do on this microscopic particle is of utmost importance.



    To the meteor question... That is eventually inevitable unless we were to colonize other planets. You cannot survive indefinitely by keeping "all of your eggs in one basket."
    What we have done makes a difference here on earth. In our solar system. But i will not lie it would be much more impressive for man to conquer the universe.

    To that second statement, good shit, you're right.
    Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

  25. #425
    Lucky survivor Seasoned Member mad cowboy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE QUOTE by Beatnik Bob ,,,,]But ultimately, all of that is contained by one miniscule blue dot near the edge of one of hundreds of galaxies...

    And yet we think what we do or do not do on this microscopic particle is of utmost importance.



    To the meteor question... That is eventually inevitable unless we were to colonize other planets. You cannot survive indefinitely by keeping "all of your eggs in one basket." [/QUOTE]

    Good thing your Elohim thought of this , so maybe if we destroy ourselves before the asteroid hits our cousins in the Pliedes ? can carry on , for humanity.


    Conquer the universe? really? Havent we done enough of that here ? How that worked out so far?


    I was talking to my new Buddie the Spiritist and he suggested I like find myself a spirit guide.
    This is a little different and maybe don't belong here , but I'm wondering if anyone here has went that route. I'm pretty uninitiated cept of course I have heard of having an animal spirit guide. While I don't think I have one I've always felt the Hawk is my brother, the eagle a distant cousin.
    i wonder though Do you pick your guide or do they pick you? Which leads me to my question who or what would make a good spirit guide for a 15 foot tall plastic mad cowboy? In doing semi-automatic writing I have used a few sources. Of course the devil, but I'm not sure if he wouldn't be too busy to guide me through the otherworlds.

    I think picking some famous dead person could be tricky in that there time is probably already used. Like Mark Twain who said " Put all your eggs in one basket, and watch that basket" . I have used as a figure guide Sherezada, I hope that her being a her wouldn't you no sissify me, but she is a true hero if she was real.

    I'm not sure how this works but I will maybe give a few updates as I enter or attempt to open up new worlds or way of life. What if I'm wrong? It surely wont be the first or last time.

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