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Thread: SHTF Medicine Preps

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fut004 View Post
    The only problem with looting for your necessities is that there's going to be hundreds of other people outside of those stores who all had the same idea. If you manage to be one of the first people into the store, you might have to fight your way out with your supplies - even if you were planning on sharing with "the people".
    Hence find a distributor or warehouse. Go further up the supply chain, for most people would loot a retail store, not knowing where merchandise actually is shipped from. Know where those places are.

    Back in my days as an alcoholic, I once visited a large warehouse in my area for Meijer's. Those of you who don't know, Meijer's is a large midwest grocery store. The trucks all pull through a security gate, however the warehouse employees had an unsecured parking lot so I simply walked right in and acted as if I was supposed to be there. I went to the employee break area and bought snack then walked into the warehouse and looked at everything. I wasn't even supposed to be there. I cased the whole place right in broad daylight and no one questioned it because their security is light. If you understand how those places work, it is easier to highjack freight shipments than to rob a retail store. When you see acres of semi trailers parked at truck stops or industrial parks, it is those containers that are full of valuable commodities. Empty trailers dont make money, so most of them are being used. The trick is to know where those places are. You are more likely to have less competition finding what you need at those places.


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  2. #27
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fut004 View Post
    Right.
    Sometimes it really seems like you live in a fantasy world.

    Alright, keeping your "Local Raiders" in mind (whatever it is that you actually picture when you speak of them) what's easier:

    - Taking out 1 barricaded home with 10 people inside (armed or not)
    or
    - Mugging 10 people (armed or not) who are sneaking around the streets alone, one at a time

    ????
    The first. For the simple reason that you have a location. And there would be a larger gain.

    We are not talking about small groups here. But groups that live on attacking towns or other strongholds in the same manner the vikings did in medieval time.

    People are cowards, people are ruthless, people are greedy. These Raiders of yours aren't going to look for "larger prey", they'd most likely take what they could get from who they could get. They'd be like bullies, willing to fight anybody as long as the odds are in their favour.
    Not likely. Small game like that would not result in enough resources for the entire group to feed on.

    Sure if they would find a looter they would shoot it and steal resources. But in the end, its far more efficient to go for bigger targets.

    Why would anybody protect abandoned homes?
    My point exactly. Nobody would. Which makes them ideal targets for looting.


    How do you come up with this?
    What was your thought process to determine any of this?
    Simple. The best place to be in an massive nuclear event is near the coast of farmland. As far away from any target as possible. If it comes to a nuclear winter. It would also be preferable to seek out the ocean for warmth.

    This results in only few locations of a nation suitable of longterm survival.
    Which people will flock to. Once those locations are saturated with people that can be fed. The flow of refugees will become dangerous for them. And they will start to fortify. If not done already.

    Once the doors are closed. This leaves lots of people shut away from farm and fishing areas forcing to fend for themselves. However, since those groups are not doomed immediately and very likely also armed.
    Two groups will form.

    Scavengers, which roam the nation scavenging resources and hoping to find a new place.

    Or Raiders. Groups of people which will start fighting those towns for resources. Much like the vikings in northern europe did.
    These groups will slowly specialize in taking down towns and swarm the region looking for other targets to raid. And a couple of people hiding in a homemade bunker, filled with food and other resources to last a life time. Would be an ideal target. Not defended as much as the towns. While holding far more goods than a town.


    So once the SHTF, people in your scenario will still be paying people for work and services? What currency will they be using, Lyca?
    In the beginning just an barter system. Where you work for a farmer in return for a meal and a bed each day. But eventually they will invent money again. But that is so far in the future its not even relevant to this debate.

    Oh, so you're completely comfortable with the idea of having to locate your own food and shelter for months on end? That's interesting.
    If you know where to look its pretty simple. There are lots of plants and animals that are eatable. Knowing basic survival will be your friend.


    I never said that trying to fight people off is the best idea ever either. My plan actually has me going miles away from any city, town, or villages.
    Which basically means you end up going to move around as well.

    When/if the SHTF, I'm planning on high tailing back to the North where I grew up. Friend of mine has a secluded cabin on a lake in the middle of nowhere. As long as I can get there I know I'll be fine. It's well stocked, and there's enough wildlife and empty land around to sustain a few families without anybody ever knowing.
    Which is actually similar to what I am suggesting.

    The hard part, obviously, is getting my ass out of downtown Toronto in the midst of a crisis. The way I see it is that everybody will be fleeing within the first few days. Need provisions and such to wait that out, then when things cool down I start the journey.
    This completely depends on how many people are aware of that cabin.

    If you wait to long. Its bound to get stolen. Which is why its better to move at once.



    How are those the only options?
    There is also moving around looting while avoiding everybody else.


    So weeks, months, potentially years of aimless wandering is your best option during a nuclear winter? I think your plan is flawed.
    Which is why it is important to go south or near the ocean. If you are stuck inland during the winter. You would end up in huge problems.


    So weeks, months, potentially years of aimless wandering is the best way to get into a community during it's "regroup-rebuild" stage? I think your plan is flawed. - Damn, I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot.
    It would be more effective than just sitting still wouldn't it.



    So at what point do you leave your family and friends to go on your one man quest to find a new job in the post apocalyptic world?
    Do you give them a week to see if they can rebuild, a month? That's valuable wandering time you're wasting!
    If possible, I take them with them .

    On the other hand I could naturally ask what a person building an shelter would do with those relatives for which there is no place.



    Haha. Okay.



    I won't really comment on this part, seeing how you didn't know what my actual plan was when you wrote this.
    Yes I noticed.

    I was assuming you were planning on building an homemade shelter and stocking it with food to last a lifetime.
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  3. #28
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    The fact of the matter is simple: if you prep, you still have the option to leave. If you don't prep, you only have the option to leave. There is no possible scenario where having preps is a bad thing, because you can leave them behind if you really have to. Especially (bringing it back to topic) medical preps.

  4. #29
    ### of all Things Nuclear Ningishiddza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiehlroy View Post
    Fish are stupid.
    That's why we eat them.

    Quote Originally Posted by GP100 View Post
    The fact of the matter is simple: if you prep, you still have the option to leave. If you don't prep, you only have the option to leave. There is no possible scenario where having preps is a bad thing, because you can leave them behind if you really have to. Especially (bringing it back to topic) medical preps.
    You need only two things, a surgeon and a homeopathic doctor (or nurse or anyone skilled in homeopathy). They can both double as vets for your animals.

    Where do you get them? Recruit them, or find out where they are and when the time comes kidnap them (they'll thank you later).
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    The first. For the simple reason that you have a location. And there would be a larger gain.
    Oh come on, it would be at least three times more difficult to overrun a defended position than people running willy-nilly looking for food. Taking over a house with armed people would be the last thing you should ever want to do. Even with superior numbers, you're losing several people in your group. That's basic Art of War stuff.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    Where do you get them? Recruit them, or find out where they are and when the time comes kidnap them (they'll thank you later).
    Maybe it makes me weak and would be my undoing, but I would not want to kidnap someone after SHTF. I'll compete for food, defend myself and my family, but if I lose my morals enough to kidnap someone and keep them captive, life's not worth living. I mean, I could see an extreme situation where a family member was literally dying ... I don't know. But otherwise, I'm going to try to still be a good person.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    But there is also something simple as bandages. Which dont grow on trees.


    I doubt that will happen. Looking abandoned would rather encourage looting.
    Not to mention it would severely diminish the strength of an building.
    We dont fix the places up just to make them look nice. You know.

    Besides, how many of those hidden bunkers do you expect compared with the total amount of abandoned houses.


    On the other hand. Lots of supplies can be picked up on the go if you know where to find them. You dont need to drag along 200 canisters of beef when you can also drag around documentation on what plants or animals are edible and what not. And a backpack draws a lot less unwanted attention than a fortress of any kind.



    Sitting still all the time only makes the local raiders aware that you have lots of resources. And eventually, those looters are gonna win. Even if it is just with a lucky shot.

    After the worse is over. It will be those that reached and helped build the communities that will thrive. Not the lone gunman in his bunker.
    True bandages don't grow on trees they grow on a "bush" ( sort of.) It's called a cotten plant. that among a couple of other wild plants can be used in place of comercially made bandages.

    As far as "hidden bunkers" go there are actually hundreds of them that the U.S. Government both political as well as military managed scattered around the country. I know of 8 within a 100 mile radius of where I live.

    As far as the other issues ( looting and roaming) we'll just have to agree to disagree here. IMO in the long run mobility ( on foot) will cause more problems than not with roaming gangs and such, where a well established BOL and a well trained MAG is more easily managed and defended. I follow the old military adage that if you make breaching your perimeter to costly in loss of life and severly wounded ( theirs) then the enemy ( gangs and looters) will move on to easier pickings as they have no clue exactlly what you may or may not have in way of supplies.

  7. #32
    Radioactive oldsoldier's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=GP100;448453]Oh come on, it would be at least three times more difficult to overrun a defended position than people running willy-nilly looking for food. Taking over a house with armed people would be the last thing you should ever want to do. Even with superior numbers, you're losing several people in your group. That's basic Art of War stuff.


    +1 great points! especially if one or more of those people have "hard" military training and experience, even more so it several of them have been trained, have practiced for the eventuallity, and properly equiped.
    My/our MAG consists of 10 people. 6 of us have military backgrounds/training. 4 of us 2 army and 2 marine have special forces experience. supplies for 1+ year and multiple firearms and all added up well over 100,000 rounds of ammo. Along with 3 EMT/paramedic/ army medic trained members.

  8. #33
    ### of all Things Nuclear Ningishiddza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GP100 View Post
    Oh come on, it would be at least three times more difficult to overrun a defended position than people running willy-nilly looking for food. Taking over a house with armed people would be the last thing you should ever want to do. Even with superior numbers, you're losing several people in your group. That's basic Art of War stuff.
    Taking over a house with armed people? Walk in the park.

    And yes, that is the basic "Art of War."

    A house is not much different than a Bradley or M1 Abrahms tank. When you are "buttoned up" what can you see?

    Damn near nothing. Of course you wouldn't know that since you've never been inside an armored vehicle.

    You in your little home, you can't see see 360° around you and you cannot defend 360° around you.

    And there are "blind spots."

    You get the crew out of an armored vehicle the same way you get people out of a house, you burn it. If I can get close enough through a fire-bomb, then it is child's play for me to burn you out of your house.

    All I have to do is create a distraction to get your attention and then I have a 270° field/area where you cannot see me and I can stroll nonchalantly up to your house and fire it.

    Then you can either shoot your family and commit suicide to avoid the pain of fire, or huddle together and breathe in the noxious fumes so you die as quickly and painlessly as possible.

    Or you can flee outside and we'll shoot you down as soon as you show your face.

    Once the fire is out, I scavenge and take whatever I want.

    People hiding in their homes are a threat to me, because it prevents me from having 100% freedom of mobility as I move my teams up and down major transportation routes and movement points.

    In other words, my scout teams, assault teams and scavenging teams have to have total unfettered freedom to move from base camp to their operational areas and back without fear of being shot by a trigger-happy idiot or some jack-ass in a total panic.

    For that reason, every home/building/structure along travel routes will be destroyed (by being burned to the ground) to prevent them from being occupied and used by threat forces, whether those forces are the government, some other government, a rebel group, thugs, other groups competing against me for resources or "innocent" families.

    There are many who think just as I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by GP100 View Post
    Maybe it makes me weak and would be my undoing, but I would not want to kidnap someone after SHTF. I'll compete for food, defend myself and my family, but if I lose my morals enough to kidnap someone and keep them captive, life's not worth living. I mean, I could see an extreme situation where a family member was literally dying ... I don't know. But otherwise, I'm going to try to still be a good person.
    Then you'll die, soon enough, and probably painfully.

    You cannot survive an Armageddon without help.

    For all that I know, there is more I don't know, and I am willing and able to admit that.

    I'm also willing to rectify that by surrounding me with people who do know, like a surgeon, an homeopathic doctor, a veterinarian, a civil engineer, a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, an hydraulic engineer, plumbers and carpenters and farmers and others who can help restore some semblance of civilization once the area is totally absent any threat forces and 90+% of the population is dead.

    Those people who think they're going to go into their "bomb shelter" and live for 1-7 years, they aren't. They're going to die. They'll commit suicide.

    The Psychology of Armageddon is overwhelming, and the vast majority of people simply cannot deal with it. Without a strong leader to guide them and give them assurances and encouragement, they will commit suicide.

    The Psychology of Isolation is equally threatening and the vast majority cannot deal with that either. People are social creatures, social animals, and they need and require interaction with others. That's why the people in the "bomb shelters" will all end up committing suicide, because they cannot handle isolation. Can you imagine a 7-year old in a bomb-shelter with mommy and daddy? They would drive mommy and daddy insane.

    How many of you can be astronauts? None of you. You couldn't pass the psychological testing, because you cannot handle the isolation.

    The only way to survive an Armageddon is in a group with others, about 40-100 is ideal.

    You need a base camp, a building/structure that has a huge frontage and large space all around.

    You need a minimum of 8 people to defend all 360°.

    And you need screening. Someone like me needs only 2 hours to build a mortar and few rounds of ammo.

    I'm going to drop a fire-bomb on your roof? Hell, no. WTF? I'm a 100 times better than that. I'll get the round on the downward angle coming right through the living room window. Why? Because napalm sticks to kids and my home-made napalm round will soak your children and probably you and your wife as well. Good luck with that.

    You can board up your windows, but that would be like having the Good Year Blimp park over you home advertising you were there.

    So you need a place that is in a wooded area (natural screening) and well back off of the road. That will prevent mortar attacks, because home-made mortars aren't all that powerful (I'm talking about the velocity of the round, not the actual round itself).

    Farmhouses are ideal, as are most 18th Century and early 19th Century houses.

    If you don't live in one, then you need to find one near you. Invite people. Key people. They might think you're crazy, but that's okay. Plant the seed in their mind and then keep reminding them. If you don't get a chance to bring them their, there's a good chance they'll show up on their own (because you planted the seed).

    You need food. Chickens, geese, a goat or cow. Cats, dogs and rabbits, because they breed quickly. Oh, you don't want to eat cats and dogs? Well then I suggest you learn how to properly butcher a human, because it's either eat cats and dogs, or eat people.

    In a Solar/Nuclear EMP, it's Lord of the Flies. People will do anything for food, including eating other people, and even killing people to eat as fresh food.

    In an Asteroid/Volcanic event, you'll have to deal with the military, at least for a while. If rogue military units are going to rape, torture and kill Iraqi and Afghani civilians, they'll be killing you and your family and taking your food. Or they'll be taking your food to give to the Great & the Good.

    Or, the soldiers will be rounding you up to put into a camp because you have been deemed "expendable" and the government cannot feed everyone, even if it rations food, and all food goes to the Great & the Good and to Party members. And campaign contributors. And friends of friends.

    So the only way to survive is in a group. There is safety in numbers, and 10 people can do a lot more than 1 person.
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  9. #34
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=GP100;448453]
    Oh come on, it would be at least three times more difficult to overrun a defended position than people running willy-nilly looking for food.
    Really. Scavengers tent to not have around. Which is why they are scavengers. Hunting them down is thus a waste of time.

    Taking over a house with armed people would be the last thing you should ever want to do. Even with superior numbers, you're losing several people in your group. That's basic Art of War stuff.
    Not with the right tactics and weapons. Not to mention the element of surprise.

    The simplest method to take out a person sheltering would be to just snipe his head of the minute he checks what is going on. And there is always tricks like smoking everybody out. Laying ambushes, Kidnapping and surprise attacks.
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  10. #35
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    Having talented musicians in your group would definitely be necessary. We take music for granted in our modern world, but its application and importance in daily life was a big part of the beginning of humanity.

    Also important would be the people who can fashion and craft musical instruments.

    On another note, even in our modern world of conveniences, "survival" still can seem very difficult, from certain perspectives.

    There really isn't much difference, I think, in the theoretical groups we envision forming, and in the way currently, that people behave and function together in groups; in some social strata they are actually referred to as "gangs."

    Same thing, just operating on another level, it would seem.

    There's a recent film called The Book of Eli, that includes a lot of the graphic scenarios and landscape being described in this thread. Very gritty and disturbing. Of course Denzel Washington is utterly brilliant in the film, he has such a nobility of soul (I did read that somewhere about him) grace, and talent, just seeing him in this part is stunning.

    Gary Oldham, so excellent at acting the evil leader, runs the outpost town, still full of evil, but at least they don't allow the eating of human flesh, which in itself is a rarity in the film.

    I should note, it has a christian slant.

    One of the best things uttered by Washington in the film:

    “People had more than they needed.
    We had no idea what was precious and what wasn’t.
    We threw away things people kill each other for now."


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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    Taking over a house with armed people? Walk in the park.

    And yes, that is the basic "Art of War."

    A house is not much different than a Bradley or M1 Abrahms tank. When you are "buttoned up" what can you see?

    Damn near nothing. Of course you wouldn't know that since you've never been inside an armored vehicle.

    You in your little home, you can't see see 360° around you and you cannot defend 360° around you.

    And there are "blind spots."

    You get the crew out of an armored vehicle the same way you get people out of a house, you burn it. If I can get close enough through a fire-bomb, then it is child's play for me to burn you out of your house.

    All I have to do is create a distraction to get your attention and then I have a 270° field/area where you cannot see me and I can stroll nonchalantly up to your house and fire it.

    Then you can either shoot your family and commit suicide to avoid the pain of fire, or huddle together and breathe in the noxious fumes so you die as quickly and painlessly as possible.

    Or you can flee outside and we'll shoot you down as soon as you show your face.

    Once the fire is out, I scavenge and take whatever I want.

    People hiding in their homes are a threat to me, because it prevents me from having 100% freedom of mobility as I move my teams up and down major transportation routes and movement points.

    In other words, my scout teams, assault teams and scavenging teams have to have total unfettered freedom to move from base camp to their operational areas and back without fear of being shot by a trigger-happy idiot or some jack-ass in a total panic.

    For that reason, every home/building/structure along travel routes will be destroyed (by being burned to the ground) to prevent them from being occupied and used by threat forces, whether those forces are the government, some other government, a rebel group, thugs, other groups competing against me for resources or "innocent" families.

    There are many who think just as I do.



    Then you'll die, soon enough, and probably painfully.

    You cannot survive an Armageddon without help.

    For all that I know, there is more I don't know, and I am willing and able to admit that.

    I'm also willing to rectify that by surrounding me with people who do know, like a surgeon, an homeopathic doctor, a veterinarian, a civil engineer, a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, an hydraulic engineer, plumbers and carpenters and farmers and others who can help restore some semblance of civilization once the area is totally absent any threat forces and 90+% of the population is dead.

    Those people who think they're going to go into their "bomb shelter" and live for 1-7 years, they aren't. They're going to die. They'll commit suicide.

    The Psychology of Armageddon is overwhelming, and the vast majority of people simply cannot deal with it. Without a strong leader to guide them and give them assurances and encouragement, they will commit suicide.

    The Psychology of Isolation is equally threatening and the vast majority cannot deal with that either. People are social creatures, social animals, and they need and require interaction with others. That's why the people in the "bomb shelters" will all end up committing suicide, because they cannot handle isolation. Can you imagine a 7-year old in a bomb-shelter with mommy and daddy? They would drive mommy and daddy insane.

    How many of you can be astronauts? None of you. You couldn't pass the psychological testing, because you cannot handle the isolation.

    The only way to survive an Armageddon is in a group with others, about 40-100 is ideal.

    You need a base camp, a building/structure that has a huge frontage and large space all around.

    You need a minimum of 8 people to defend all 360°.

    And you need screening. Someone like me needs only 2 hours to build a mortar and few rounds of ammo.

    I'm going to drop a fire-bomb on your roof? Hell, no. WTF? I'm a 100 times better than that. I'll get the round on the downward angle coming right through the living room window. Why? Because napalm sticks to kids and my home-made napalm round will soak your children and probably you and your wife as well. Good luck with that.

    You can board up your windows, but that would be like having the Good Year Blimp park over you home advertising you were there.

    So you need a place that is in a wooded area (natural screening) and well back off of the road. That will prevent mortar attacks, because home-made mortars aren't all that powerful (I'm talking about the velocity of the round, not the actual round itself).

    Farmhouses are ideal, as are most 18th Century and early 19th Century houses.

    If you don't live in one, then you need to find one near you. Invite people. Key people. They might think you're crazy, but that's okay. Plant the seed in their mind and then keep reminding them. If you don't get a chance to bring them their, there's a good chance they'll show up on their own (because you planted the seed).

    You need food. Chickens, geese, a goat or cow. Cats, dogs and rabbits, because they breed quickly. Oh, you don't want to eat cats and dogs? Well then I suggest you learn how to properly butcher a human, because it's either eat cats and dogs, or eat people.

    In a Solar/Nuclear EMP, it's Lord of the Flies. People will do anything for food, including eating other people, and even killing people to eat as fresh food.

    In an Asteroid/Volcanic event, you'll have to deal with the military, at least for a while. If rogue military units are going to rape, torture and kill Iraqi and Afghani civilians, they'll be killing you and your family and taking your food. Or they'll be taking your food to give to the Great & the Good.

    Or, the soldiers will be rounding you up to put into a camp because you have been deemed "expendable" and the government cannot feed everyone, even if it rations food, and all food goes to the Great & the Good and to Party members. And campaign contributors. And friends of friends.

    So the only way to survive is in a group. There is safety in numbers, and 10 people can do a lot more than 1 person.
    You sir are an idiot! I would love to meet you and your "team" I guarentee 110% that our well trained group, WITH 360 degree views, cameras, motion and heat sensors, as well as lots of surprises as well. Not everyone is a sheeple ready for a pissed of bunch of boy scout rejects to take everything they have. We have the capibility, the location, and the training to successfully defend against 10+ times our numbers.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    All I have to do is create a distraction to get your attention and then I have a 270° field/area where you cannot see me and I can stroll nonchalantly up to your house and fire it.

    Then you can either shoot your family and commit suicide to avoid the pain of fire, or huddle together and breathe in the noxious fumes so you die as quickly and painlessly as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    The simplest method to take out a person sheltering would be to just snipe his head of the minute he checks what is going on. And there is always tricks like smoking everybody out. Laying ambushes, Kidnapping and surprise attacks.
    Umm.. You guys realize that burning down a house means that you won't be able to get anything from within, right? Meaning all you're doing is wasting your time, your energy, and your resources.

    Unless you guys are just complete psychos who are willing to kill people just for shits and enjoy doing this, there's no reason to attack a house in this manner.
    Last edited by Fut004; Jul 29th, 2011 at 1:39 PM.

  13. #38
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldsoldier View Post
    You sir are an idiot! I would love to meet you and your "team" I guarentee 110% that our well trained group, WITH 360 degree views, cameras, motion and heat sensors, as well as lots of surprises as well. Not everyone is a sheeple ready for a pissed of bunch of boy scout rejects to take everything they have. We have the capibility, the location, and the training to successfully defend against 10+ times our numbers.
    That sounds more like arrogance.

    It is simply impossible to foresee all possible methods of attacks. Rule out lucky shots. Foresee surprise attacks And expect equipment, especially electronically ones to be operational for an eternity.

    There is afteral a good reason why the technically advanced and far better trained US army still ranks up quite an casualty list in Afghanistan.
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    Bank Robber Contributor Tsunami's Avatar
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    If you burn a house down in a shtf situation would the fire brigade even turn up? Or would you use your own water?

    Either way, most of what you are looking for will be smoke and water damaged.

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    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    The medicinal application of music..healing sounds ~

    Music Therapy - Modern Healing with Sound and Rhythm
    by Christian Münzberg

    Using music for the healing of emotional and physical conditions was natural in many ancient cultures. Pythagoras used it to treat melancholy, the harmony between the mind and body was promoted in the Greek temple hospitals, the Sufis applied healing melodies for physical and emotional complaints, mantra singing provided access to the healing energies, shamans have travelled since the beginning of time into other realms with the help of the drum. The World Health Organisation (WHO) recognised music therapy in 1996 as a form of therapy and thereby honoured the ancient wisdom of the people who use music for treating patients and for healing purposes. The current form of music therapy integrates much of the traditional knowledge and researches the effectiveness under scientific conditions. There is a great potential here that has grown through the initiative and support of many individuals, yet is still at the beginning of its development.
    http://www.healingmusic.org/Library/...dAndRhythm.asp

    Music accompanied the rise of civilization -- I really do believe that it will be of utmost importance in the event of re-building.

    absit invidia

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    Interesting points all around, but let me just mention:

    -> None of us really know each other on this board. Ning, I think you'd be surprised to see how lockstep my little guy would be with me after SHTF. Would make "The Road" look like nothing!

    -> No matter how smart and equipped and experienced we think we are (or, well, some of us may think we are, I don't think much of myself after SHTF except my preps and sheer determination), we really shouldn't be underestimating people. That house over there may seem like an easy takedown, until oops you sprung a trap. Ooops, a hidden sniper with one well placed bullet. That's all it takes. Hobbes thought we were all equal because, among other reasons, one way or another we can all kill each other! Don't underestimate.

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    Radioactive oldsoldier's Avatar
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    Hey all, I want to take a minute and apologize for my outburst of temper. Especially ti you Ning. I am normally not that way. I have spent a lot of years trying to untrain myself from such a violent mindset, Thanks to uncle sammy and his training. While that's really no excuse to call someone an idiot, Maybe it will somewhat explain it. Sometimes my control slips. Again not an excuse but things have been crazy stressful around here lately so if I go off on another rant please overlook me as I AM BEING THE IDIOT HERE!! I need to remember that one of the wonderful things about this forum is the diverse group of people here and the huge range of opinions offered, I need to remember the old saying " opinions are like a_ _ holes everyone has one. Just because some one has a different one is no reason for me to act like one! I should remember that Ning is the "instigator" ( not saying it in abad way here) and has a way of using getting people stirred up as a way of making a point.

    So Ning and everyone else here let me offer my most profound apologies and hope you will all forgive my bad attitude. Don

  18. #43
    ### of all Things Nuclear Ningishiddza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calliope View Post
    Having talented musicians in your group would definitely be necessary.
    That would be the last thing on my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldsoldier View Post
    You sir are an idiot! I would love to meet you and your "team" I guarentee 110% that our well trained group, WITH 360 degree views, cameras, motion and heat sensors, as well as lots of surprises as well. Not everyone is a sheeple ready for a pissed of bunch of boy scout rejects to take everything they have. We have the capibility, the location, and the training to successfully defend against 10+ times our numbers.
    I'm not necessarily interested in taking what you have. I more interested in unfettered/unrestricted travel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fut004 View Post
    Umm.. You guys realize that burning down a house means that you won't be able to get anything from within, right?
    I am a school-trained arson investigator. Not everything burns, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fut004 View Post
    Unless you guys are just complete psychos who are willing to kill people just for shits and enjoy doing this, there's no reason to attack a house in this manner.
    Yes there is.

    Sherman was right. The only truly effective means of warfare is scorched earth/total war.

    The first thing I will need to do is get clear access to Miami-Whitewater Forest. I have a primary route and several alternates, but I have no idea which I will be using until that day arrives. I don't know the one guy so well, but the other is a veteran and then another is brother of a girl I dated in high school. They don't know how to say "No." So anyone who shows up with a sad face and a sad story they will let stay with us. I don't have a problem with that, but it will tax our food resources.

    The Forest has wild asparagus, wild celery, field corn, wild wheat, mushrooms, several herds of deer and many other animals. The Forest is absolutely vital to our survival. We have to secure it, and patrol it to keep the scum out.

    Any houses or buildings along the travel route to and from the Forest have to be destroyed. That's all there is to it. It isn't only common sense, it is practical military sense. I can't allow threat forces to occupy the building and ambush my people and take their food, or otherwise interfere with my operations.

    I'm not so cold-hearted as to not give people a chance. They can either cooperate or die. If they unass the building, they can come stay with us as compensation. If they refuse to leave, I'll kill them because I don't have time to argue with those people.

    The East entrance to the Forest is a few hundred feet from the Great Miami River. Fortunately, there's only 3 bridges across the river in the whole county, and two of those bridges cannot handle armored vehicles.

    Two of those bridges have buildings/structures on either side of the river. They have to be destroyed. I can't allow federal troops or the National Guard or rebels or insurgents or thugs to occupy those buildings and shoot at my people.

    We have a pre-EMP back-hoe, but what I really need is a pre-EMP bulldozer to knock down the buildings. I'll have to see where I can find one.

    In a Solar/Nuclear EMP Event, there is no continuity of government so you don't have ever have to worry about the military. But in a Toba-like Event, or and Asteroid strike, you'll still have continuity of government, and the military will be deployed for crowd control and to take food from you to give to the Great & the Good. So I would have to find a way to destroy that 3rd bridge to keep military units from crossing it. If I can do that, then there is no place to ford the river, and Army engineers will have to go north into the next county to find a place build their pontoon bridges.

    So it isn't about being psycho, it's about being practical. The difference between conservatives and liberals is that if a ship is sinking and there's only one life raft and it has a maximum capacity of 8 people, then you choose 8 people and go, and those 8 people will live.

    Liberals would try to put everyone on the life-raft, the life-raft will capsize and sink, and everyone will die and no one will live.

    If I have to kill 100 people so that 50 people have a fighting chance to survive, then that is exactly what I will do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami View Post
    If you burn a house down in a shtf situation would the fire brigade even turn up? Or would you use your own water?
    In a Solar/Nuclear EMP Event, there aren't going to be any emergency services.

    In a Toba-like Event, or a major Asteroid Event, you just lie in wait and ambush the emergency services, and that will be the end of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami View Post
    Either way, most of what you are looking for will be smoke and water damaged.
    A smoked damaged Sig Sauer 9 mm? A smoke damaged can of beans and bangers? Okay, whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by GP100 View Post
    -> None of us really know each other on this board. Ning, I think you'd be surprised to see how lockstep my little guy would be with me after SHTF. Would make "The Road" look like nothing!
    It's Armageddon. It is not a tornado or hurricane, and it isn't a feature film.

    When the reality sinks in that it is really "The End" it's going to be total panic and bedlam. It will be worse in urban and urbanized areas. You should expect mass suicides. You know, the whole "god has forsaken us," "god has abandoned us," "God is Dead" thing, so obviously there's no Heaven or Hell which is a perfect excuse to commit mayhem.

    Then there's the whole "hopelessness and despair" thing. What's the point of continuing on?

    Sure, some might last for a while. But one night you'll go to sleep and never wake up because your wife will decide that slitting your throats and slashing her wrists is the best thing for you. It's happened before you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by GP100 View Post
    -> No matter how smart and equipped and experienced we think we are (or, well, some of us may think we are, I don't think much of myself after SHTF except my preps and sheer determination), we really shouldn't be underestimating people. That house over there may seem like an easy takedown, until oops you sprung a trap. Ooops, a hidden sniper with one well placed bullet. That's all it takes. Hobbes thought we were all equal because, among other reasons, one way or another we can all kill each other! Don't underestimate.
    I never underestimate, and I'm not so blind as to be unable to see booby traps or IEDs, especially since I'm trained and experienced in crafting both.

    I also have thousands of hours of practical experience in surveillance and reconnaissance. As a private investigator, I used to sit for hours watching a house, so it won't be like I haven't' done it before.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldsoldier View Post
    Hey all, I want to take a minute and apologize for my outburst of temper. Especially ti you Ning.
    Why? I don't take things personally and don't care.

    If I give my word to people that I will protect and defend them, then I will do exactly that, and I will do it to the best of my abilities, or I will die trying.

    That's just the kind of person I am.

    When it gets real, I play to win. It's the only way I know how to play, and I don't like to lose. I'm a meticulous planner and leave nothing to chance, operating on the theory of minimal risk, minimal exposure

    If I happen to be here when Armageddon happens, I have a plan, and it will work, and it will save a lot of people. Between the 3 farms and the Forest, we can probably feed 1,000 people and keep them alive through the next planting and harvest in a Solar/Nuclear EMP scenario. For a Toba-like Event or an Asteroid Event, I don't know. It might be 2-7 years before we can plant anything again, so we will have to rely solely on animals for food.

    I have only 30 days or less to get it together.

    In the urban/urbanize areas, the Welfare Class and the Lower Class will be out of food in two weeks, even if they loot the grocery stores and mini-marts.

    It will be ugly. Can you imagine 5,000 people fighting over a rat to eat?

    The competition for food will be like nothing you have ever experienced or could imagine. There's a thread here about people, I don't know in Minnesota or somewhere storming a retail outlet to buy the last Kewpie Doll or something and they trampled people to death.

    You will see that play out on a mass scale everywhere you look.

    Two weeks later the most of the Middle Class will be out of food, assuming the Welfare Class and Lower Class hordes haven't over-run them and taken what little food remains.

    And then the Great Migration starts.

    Here, geography is important. Most of the Welfare Class is situated near the [Ohio] river, so they aren't going to cross into Kentucky, into an urban area for food, instead they'll move east and west toward Suburbia and the semi-rural/rural areas.

    And they will do whatever they need to do get food, and that means they will kill the weak to take their food. And as things get worse, they'll be taking it from anyone, weak or not, and why?

    Because they have nothing to lose. It's either starve to death, or die trying to get food.

    Thousands and thousands of people will be moving along US Route 50 and down Harrison Avenue and down I-74 toward the Great Miami River with the misguided belief that there's food in the corn and many other crop fields and the many orchards in that area.

    My job is to kill them before they get to the river.

    It isn't about being psycho, it's about common sense. I can feed 1,000, but I can't feed 30,000 or even 10,000 or even 5,000.

    As it stands, I'm going to have to deal with the 30,000 people who live in nearby Harrison (and I know some of them, but I'll have to kill them anyway). That's why I have to control the Forest. If I don't they'll destroy the Forest and render it unusable, because they're clueless and don't know what they're doing.

    For every "meal" the clueless take, they'll destroy 10 "meals" for others because they don't know what they're doing. They'll trample down the wild asparagus and celery to get at a deer, and then they won't even eat the whole deer, because they don't know how to properly prepare it, so instead of feeding 100 people, only 5 people get fed.

    That's for a Solar/Nuclear EMP scenario. In a Toba-like Event or Asteroid Strike, the National Guard and federal troops will be securing the grocery stores and warehouses/distribution centers, until HEMTTs arrive. Then they'll load the HEMTTs up with all the food and the HEMTTs will leave and take that food to feed the Great & the Good. You get left with nothing. Hopefully, the military will leave once they've stripped all the food out of an area. And then you basically revert to an EMP-like scenario except that you will have some usable technology, at least for a while.

    You should know your surveillance cameras, heat and motion sensors won't work in an EMP environment, and for Volcanic/Asteroid Events you may or may not have electrical power, or you may have power for only a short term basis. Even if the government keeps the power grid operating, my guess is there will either be rolling brownouts or the government will order reduced power, meaning you have electricity from 5pm to 8pm and that's it.

    Then too, surveillance cameras are great for target practice. A .22 rifle with scope, covered and concealed position from 400m-450m and I can teach a lot of people how to use a weapon, and destroy the cameras.

    You all know how to make napalm slugs for your 12 Gauge shotguns right? Sure, you can buy incendiary rounds, which are great for firing through windows and catching the curtains, bedding and carpet on fire, but you should learn how to make napalm slugs as well.
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    Radioactive oldsoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    You all know how to make napalm slugs for your 12 Gauge shotguns right? Sure, you can buy incendiary rounds, which are great for firing through windows and catching the curtains, bedding and carpet on fire, but you should learn how to make napalm slugs as well.
    Have to admit I do not. Actually shamefully I have to say I've never heard of napalm rounds for a shotgun. I do know how to make thermite but I guess I missed the napalm class

  20. #45
    GEAUX SAINTS! Contributor pico's Avatar
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    I have seen something like what I would imagine napalm rounds would be. They are called dragons breath, and spit out hot flames. I would imagine if you could add in #1 buckshot, it would be truly impressive, but I am not sure how much capacity a 12 gauge shell can hold to accomodate all.
    I'd Rather Be A Right-Wing Nut Job Then A Liberal With No Nuts And No Job

  21. #46
    Radioactive oldsoldier's Avatar
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    I've seen videos of dragons breath rounds. They are awsome

  22. #47
    . Global Moderator Fut004's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    I am a school-trained arson investigator. Not everything burns, you know.
    We're talking post apoc here, what's worth taking besides food, water, medicine, clothing...etc.
    Does fire ruin all these things? Yup.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    Yes there is.

    Sherman was right. The only truly effective means of warfare is scorched earth/total war.
    Psycho.
    The house that you just burnt down is full of innocent people just trying to survive. Hope you're proud.

  23. #48
    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post

    Originally Posted by calliope
    Having talented musicians in your group would definitely be necessary.
    That would be the last thing on my mind.
    But these will be included in your merry band of arsonists/mass murderers....

    I'm also willing to rectify that by surrounding me with people who do know, like a surgeon, an homeopathic doctor, a veterinarian, a civil engineer, a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, an hydraulic engineer, plumbers and carpenters and farmers and others who can help restore some semblance of civilization once the area is totally absent any threat forces and 90+% of the population is dead.
    And those people are going to be willing to burn and murder?? That's interesting.


    The Psychology of Armageddon is overwhelming, and the vast majority of people simply cannot deal with it. Without a strong leader to guide them and give them assurances and encouragement, they will commit suicide.
    Yeah, and with musicians and music, your task will be much more likely to succeed.

    That you disagree with me is inconsequential. There are others here speaking of survival groups, and how they would proceed.

    I'm not as smart as you, but a lot of others here envision group survival much differently than you do.

    And whether or not you or any other of the mass murderers have re-building civilization as part of your survival scenario, the fact remains that doing so will eventually be done by someone, and music/musicians will be just as necessary as homeopathists, engineers and farmers.
    absit invidia

  24. #49
    ### of all Things Nuclear Ningishiddza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fut004 View Post
    We're talking post apoc here, what's worth taking besides food, water, medicine, clothing...etc.
    Does fire ruin all these things? Yup.
    Well, you're wrong. As I said, you know not what you're talking about. I'm a school trained arson investigator, and I've seen dozens of fires in a variety of structures, but I never investigated them as an arson investigator. Not everything burns, and not everything is damaged by smoke or water.

    There are many other things worth taking other than food, medicine and clothing.

    Piping to make recoiless rifles and mortars, electrical wiring, cleaning supplies and chemicals to make weapons.

    Um, charcoal. Need plenty of charcoal for heat and cooking. Lot of charcoal lying around a house/building after a fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fut004 View Post
    Psycho.
    The house that you just burnt down is full of innocent people just trying to survive. Hope you're proud.
    Quite proud. If they wanted to survive, then they would unass the property and go survive somewhere else. As I said, they can join us as compensation for losing their home. They'd be fools not to do that, since their odds of surviving will have just increased to 99%.

    I wouldn't let 5 people jeopardize the lives of 500 any more than I would let one person jeopardize the lives of 10 people. That's just the way it goes. It's business, it's not personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by calliope View Post
    But these will be included in your merry band of arsonists/mass murderers....
    People have other priorities. It's not like they can fire up the mellotron, set the Korg and start jamming with their Rickenbacker 4001 bass. There's not going to be any electricity you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by calliope View Post
    And those people are going to be willing to burn and murder?? That's interesting.
    No, those people will be doing other important things. It would be stupid to go to extraordinary lengths to get a surgeon and then risk his/her life in a raid that they have no business participating in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by calliope View Post
    I'm not as smart as you, but a lot of others here envision group survival much differently than you do.
    Which is unfortunate, because they won't survive.

    Over the next decade, some of the people here will get caught up in something like the Tottenham Riots, or the Rodney King Riot or the Cincinnati Riot and they will know fear like they've never known. It's not the same kind of fear as being shot at or being on an helicopter spinning out of control and crashing into the Harz Mountains or the Baltic Sea, or even like the fear one gets when told they have inoperable cancer.

    It's a different fear.

    It's that kind of guttural primordial instinctive fear.

    And if so, the light bulb will come on and their eyes will open wide and they will know and understand and then they will do what they must do to survive.

    And it isn't mass murder, it's self-defense.

    If you have to kill 10,000 people so that 100 can survive, then that is what you do. It's just common sense because doing nothing and allowing 10,100 people to die is asinine and fucktarded.

    Eons ago, some people fished, while some people hunted, and then there were some who did nothing, and to eat, they just killed the people who fished and hunted and took their food.

    Been there, done that, deja vu. In an Armageddon, history would repeat itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by calliope View Post
    And whether or not you or any other of the mass murderers have re-building civilization as part of your survival scenario, the fact remains that doing so will eventually be done by someone, and music/musicians will be just as necessary as homeopathists, engineers and farmers.
    Of course we have re-building civilization as part of the scenario. I so stated. And no, music and musicians are not relevant. People will have other priorities, and music will not be one of them.

    Obviously, you've never seen an Agrarian Society, so you wouldn't have the first clue. It's a 16-18 hour day, 7 days a week. You have to clear the fields by hand, plow and prep the fields by hand, plant seed by hand, and since there's no herbicides, you'll have to weed the fields by hand. If you want corn seed, so you can plant for next year's crop, you'll have to walk the corn and detassle it by hand. Harvesting is all by hand.

    There won't be a lot of time for music and merry-making, and for most people, I suspect it would be too painful, because it would only serve to remind them of what they once were and what they can never be again.
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  25. #50
    Radioactive Serious Member XKEJag's Avatar
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    Stayed inside the house here for over 31 days/nights this summer.
    A test to check the psychological impact of doing so.
    The front door, and back door were never opened. Also kept all the curtains shut tight 24/7. No, not agoraphobic, just wanted to experience the potential impact this may have on the mind and body. Needless to say the time actually went quickly as each day melted into the next.
    Of course the big difference of viewing the aspects of surviving on only what was to be had within the house, was the fact that the electricity grid was working. Plus the water lines were not turned off within the city.
    What was the use of doing this? Preparing the scenses and seeing if all the supplies of food, water and medicinal's were enough to get by without opening the door and driving to a store.
    Phone was kept turned off.
    Cheated and enjoyed the company of my bird.
    I forgot the bottle of whiskey, for a nite-cap each evening.
    Post Script:
    Did not have to test weapons and ammo during the 31 days.
    No zombies, or looter's came to the door's.
    Last edited by XKEJag; Aug 18th, 2011 at 11:53 PM. Reason: P.S.

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