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Thread: Water

  1. #1
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Water

    Disable These Ads!
    Storing Water.

    Take empty container, rinse, fill with water. I knew I forgot something. Sanitize then fill with water.
    You can sanitize with bleach. Sounds so simple. Then I found this web site.

    http://zenbackpacking.net/WaterFilte...t.htm#Chlorine

    Lots of reading in here.
    Bleach is good and bad. Iodine is good and bad. Water filters not so good. Water purifiers better.
    Water purifiers and filters together better. But not perfect.
    FIRE !!
    Boil and boil and have no trouble. Unless you forgot to filter it and like sand in your water.

    OK here is where I'm at. I can store clean water at home. I hope I cleaned and sanitized good enough.
    From what I have been reading there is little chance I can store enough water. My next water might come from a pond or stream.
    I have no problem with boiling water other than the smoke from a fire will attrack unwanted people. So now what?

    I am looking at the Berkey water system. $228 is a lot of money for the one I want. Would it be safe enough ?
    The only thing I'm not sure about is the removal of a viruses. I doubt the ms2-fr coliphage is the only viruses I need to worry about.
    And it's not...... So now what ?

    Significant Waterborne Viruses

    Organism Groups Diseases
    Poliovirus Muscular paralysis, Aseptic meningitis, Febrile episode

    Echovirus Aseptic meningitis, Muscular paralysis, Guillain-Barre’s Syndrome, Exanthem, Respiratory diseases, Diarrhea, Epidemic myalgia, Pericarditis and myocarditis, Hepatitis

    Coxsackievirus Herpangina

    Enterovirus A Acute lymphatic pharyngitis, Aseptic meningitis, Muscular paralysis, Hand-foot-mouth disease, Respiratory disease, Infantile diarrhea, Hepatitis, Pericarditis and myocarditis

    Enterovirus B Pleurodynia, Aseptic meningitis, Muscular paralysis, Meningoencephalitis, Pericarditis, endocarditis, myocarditis, Respiratory disease, Hepatitis or Rash, Spontaneous abortion, Insulin-dependent diabetes, Congenital heart anomalies

    Reovirus Not well known

    Adenovirus Respiratory diseases, Acute conjunctivitis, Acute appendicitis, Intussusception, Subacute thyroiditis, Sarcoma in hamsters

    Hepatitis
    Infectious hepatitis, Serum hepatitis, Down’s Syndrome

    Hey the system has been around for a couple hundred years. They must be doing something right.
    Opinions ????
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  2. #2
    Fuq Haters Contributor Nu Kua's Avatar
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    Solar Water Treatment


    ...Solar water disinfection (SODIS) is a low-technology, simple process of purifying water using the power of the sun’s UV rays and solar radiation. SODIS technology was first introduced in 1980 by Aftim Acra et al. from the American University of Beirut. The initiative to spread SODIS in developing countries began with the Swiss Federal Institute of Science and Technology (Eawag) in 1991. Currently, the technical team at Eawag helps support projects in 24 countries through partner organizations in order to ensure more safe drinking water worldwide.

    The method for SODIS involves clear PET (polyethyleneteraphtalate) bottles and a location that is exposed to the sun, most commonly the roof top of a residence. The size of the bottles should be 2 liters or less, and the water is filled in the bottles to leave 2.5 cm of space in order to permit enough oxygen for the process, then shake the bottle of water to fully oxygenate the
    water The process involves exposure to the UV-rays and temperature, the higher the temperature the water reaches in the bottle the faster the disinfection process. If it is sunny or up to 50% cloudy, the water is disinfected in 6 hours of exposure. If it is 100% cloudy then the bottles need to be exposed for 2 days. If water temperature goes above 50 ͦ the disinfection process is complete in 1 hour. After this time period, the water is disinfected and ready to drink. These simple calculations of sunlight and temperature make this method of water purification very accessible...
    Yes that guy really is putting bottles on his roof.
    SODIS website.

    Solar water disinfection - the SODIS method - is a simple procedure to disinfect drinking water. Contaminated water is filled in a transparent PET-bottle or glass bottle and exposed to the sun for 6 hours. During this time, the UV-radiation of the sun kills diarrhoea generating pathogens. The SODIS-method helps to prevent diarrhoea and thereby is saving lives of people. This is urgently necessary as still more than 4000 children die every day from the consequences of diarrhoea...
    I know it gets hotter than hell in Florida, that you guys have strong sun, so maybe this can be an option at least some of the time. :)
    Last edited by Nu Kua; Jun 27th, 2011 at 6:28 PM.

  3. #3
    ### of all Things Nuclear Ningishiddza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tired Old Man View Post
    From what I have been reading there is little chance I can store enough water. My next water might come from a pond or stream. I have no problem with boiling water other than the smoke from a fire will attrack unwanted people. So now what?
    You need 1 gallon per person per day for drinking, personal hygiene and cooking. No, each person does not cook individually, you combine their water, say from 3 people to get 3 quarts for cooking (and then cleaning the vessels and utensils afterward).

    For 3 people figure 1,000 gallons for 1 year. About 1,500 gallons for 4 people.

    You can use 27 55-gallon drums for 4 people. That isn't a lot. You could probably buy a used storage tank and rent a back-hoe to install it yourself underground.

    However, you have to rotate your water, and you will find that to be a pain in the ass. With a single underground tank, you can drain and refill quite easily.

    As far as getting water from ponds or streams, ignore what you read.

    If the disaster is water-based, meaning hurricane or flood, and those are very short-term, then do not drink from streams, rivers or creeks, because there is a very high likelihood that you have sewage and storm drain run-off in the water and it won't be safe. Ponds will be safe, unless it is very close to a septic tank and that normally is not the case.

    For Asteroid Strikes, that would depend on your location in relation to the strike point and the size of the impactor. If you are distant and it is a small impactor, the problem would be acids in the water. Get an organic chemistry book and learn which products you can buy at your local hardware store or pharmacy to neutralize the acids.

    If it's a large impactor, you'll have heavy metals including radio-nuclides in the water.

    Will it kill you or injure your health? That depends on how much you drink and for how long.

    You have look at perspective and proportion. Suppose a stream is contaminated with heavy metals like mercury. If you drink from it, are you going to die? No. What if you drink every day for 6 months? No, but several years later you might suffer ill health effects, assuming you did not get medical treatment in the interim.

    If it's just trace amounts of mercury, you could drink it every day for 3 years and not suffer.

    It depends on how badly the water is contaminated, and that's true for any chemicals. Say a dry cleaner leaks Carbon Tetrachloride into the stream when it is destroyed. At 1 part per billion, it won't kill you, but at higher levels, like 100 parts per million it could.

    The best thing to do is drill a well, then you don't have to worry about anything. Someone could shit 1 Million tons of U238 a mile from your well and by the time it leched into the ground and into the aquifer and moved to your location (aquifers move at rates of meters per year), you would be dead and your great-great-great grandchildren dead and their bones turned to dust.

    Someone could dump a few hundred gallons of chemical goo a mile from your well and it would be 100 years before it got into the aquifer and move to your location and contaminated your well.

    You can use a manual pump with a well, and have the pump in your home so you have access to water but never have to go outside.

    You would need a sewage treatment plan. You'd need a septic tank or something, because pissing and crapping on your property would contaminate the well water.

    Solar/Nuclear EMP you won't have water or sewage. For Asteroid or Super-volcano, the dust in the air will settle on the ground, and the first rain will wash it into the storm drains and sewers and clog them. That stuff is like cement, you'll never get it out and every time it rains the sewage will overflow into the streets. Maybe a month and you'll cholera outbreaks or worse typhoid outbreaks. The difference is that with Typhoid you have to burn the bodies or the Typhoid spores will not die and will go right back into the ground or water. Sewers will back up right into the homes. It'll clog the intake valves at water treatment plants and there goes your water.

    For long term survival, nothing beats a well. For short term, a couple of 2-4 55-gallon plastic drums should get you through hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes and such. Civil disturbance? That's a hoot. National Guard will have that under control in 3 days or less if local police don't.
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  4. #4
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Ning I think my well water has been in question for the last 20 years. Unless I put a hand pump on it it will be of no use to me. You will need water to prime a hand pump also. So I am back to boiling water or some type of filter. I still like the Berkey. Any opinions on it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nu Kua View Post
    I know it gets hotter than hell in Florida, that you guys have strong sun, so maybe this can be an option at least some of the time. :)
    Basically the same as boiling water. I think...
    If you drink bottled water read the label. If it is distilled or other things read the label. They add back to the water minerals. I think that is ok. From what I have read before you don't want to drink distilled water or any water that removes minerals. This water will leach ( ? ) the minerals from your body.

    So back to a water filter / purifier . Any opinions ?
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  5. #5
    GEAUX SAINTS! Contributor pico's Avatar
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    You can go onto www.cheaperthandirt.com and buy a do it yourself water filtration kit that is a homemade version of the berkey water filter. I can't buy it here in Iowa, so I am having mine shipped to North Dakota, where I might be if and when TSHTF.

    Getting your water is the first step, and for this there is no real reason to worry about sanitation. Bird shit and other debris will likely be there, but collect the rainwater from your roof. It is very easy if you have gutters, and can be rigged if you don't when things fall apart. Anyway, you must have rain barrels on your home at all downspouts. It is too easy not to have this setup. You can then have more than one at the same location, simply by having an overflow line run between 2 of more.I have a total of 3 55 gallon barrels, and should have more like 7 or 8 with my vegetable garden requiring what it does.

    From there, you need an effective way of moving the water from point A to point B. I bought an inexpensive drill powered pump. You simply use garden hoses, with this around midway along. With a cordless drill that can be recharged using solar panels, the pump can be mounted to a board with a bungee cord to hold the drill in place. The pump is much like an enclosed paint mixer, so you attach the pump like a long drill bit. Anyway, it works well and gives a much faster rate of flow compared to gravity. I would imagine it would be inefficient, but you might be able to use this pump to send water to a larger above ground water tower, allowing you to easily take showers and such.

    From there, you can go several routes. I have chosen at present to divide up my water 3 ways. I will want drinking water, and for this I would use my Katadyn brand water filters that remove over 99% of the harmful stuff that might be present. Once this water has been run thru, I would boil it to remove anything else. I would have my homemade sand filter setup, which should remove much of the debris in the water. Simply running it thru coarse sand or a homemade filter using balls like that found in larger aquariums should solve this problem. I would then simply boil and use for cleaning self and clothes. Lastly, just having this water will be useful in its collected state for watering plants, so simply sending it to the veggies that are thirsty is all I would need to do.

    Using this method, it would be best to have a metal or tile roof. You can also substitute barrels with large poly tarps or anything impermeable for rainwater collection. One thing you will need to keep in mind is insects. Having a rainbarrel with a smaller opening will keep animals out and insects can be treated perhaps a bit easier.

    You can make a solar water filter that collects evaporation and lets it trickle down to collection sites. This should work in a pinch, but it could take some time to get a glass.
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  6. #6
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pico View Post
    Once this water has been run thru, I would boil it to remove anything else.
    To boil or not to boil is the question..........
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  7. #7
    ### of all Things Nuclear Ningishiddza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tired Old Man View Post
    To boil or not to boil is the question..........
    You gonna go out and chop wood, or do you plan on burning your wife's shoes and clothes?

    You need a fuel to burn things, where you going to store that?

    If you get a big enough tank, you a few thousand gallons of diesel on top of you water. It will float.

    And no, you don't have to prime a pump for a well. Run the damn line into the house and you can pump a gallon a month into a bucket and go mop the floors in the basement or something. The well water is free, right?
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  8. #8
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    You gonna go out and chop wood, or do you plan on burning your wife's shoes and clothes?

    You need a fuel to burn things, where you going to store that?

    If you get a big enough tank, you a few thousand gallons of diesel on top of you water. It will float.

    And no, you don't have to prime a pump for a well. Run the damn line into the house and you can pump a gallon a month into a bucket and go mop the floors in the basement or something. The well water is free, right?
    Store fuel ? I was going to use the fat from people I didn't eat as fuel !
    Ning have you ever had a well ? Ever had to prime one ? The best check valve will need to be primed.
    Here I had some faith in you. But not anymore. You don't know shit about wells .
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  9. #9
    Fuq Haters Contributor Nu Kua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tired Old Man View Post
    To boil or not to boil is the question..........
    If you were able to do the bottles-in-the-sun thing, no boil, because it's UV rays that are purifying it, not heat, though heat would mean the difference between a few hours a couple of days wait.
    We could never do that here, I imagine. But the sun's rays are stronger where you are. :)

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    I could see using a little barbeque to boil using minimal fuel hopefully (boil a little pot). Keeping the fire real low and maybe boiling at night (can't see the smoke?) would be the way to go.

  11. #11
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nu Kua View Post
    If you were able to do the bottles-in-the-sun thing, no boil, because it's UV rays that are purifying it, not heat, though heat would mean the difference between a few hours a couple of days wait.
    We could never do that here, I imagine. But the sun's rays are stronger where you are. :)
    I will keep this in mind and I guess I lot of bottles also. I did read a good story on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by GP100 View Post
    I could see using a little barbeque to boil using minimal fuel hopefully (boil a little pot). Keeping the fire real low and maybe boiling at night (can't see the smoke?) would be the way to go.
    I have the Rocket Stove and have tested it. It works great and uses very little fuel.

    http://www.stovetec.net/us/index.php

    To Berkey or not to Berkey seems to be my question. From everything I have read about it, I think I'll go for it.
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    Survivalist! New Wine's Avatar
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    I own a British Berkefeld. Over the course of 5 years have had to clean the rods only twice. Which is easy, easy to do.

    If I had to get water from a pond etc, I'd filter it with cheese cloth or coffee filters first, and then into the Berkey.

    UV treatment is a good thing to kill off stuff if fuel to boil is an issue.

    For anything that escaped that process...well...I would rely on prayer.
    Neither do men put new wine into old bottles

  13. #13
    ### of all Things Nuclear Ningishiddza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Wine View Post
    UV treatment is a good thing to kill off stuff if fuel to boil is an issue.
    Of course. You can keep the UV Lamp over by the Cuisinart.

    I don't suppose it donned on people that for most Armageddon scenarios there won't be electricity or natural gas.

    I guess you can rip up the flooring in your home and burn that as fuel.
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  14. #14
    Survivalist! New Wine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    Of course. You can keep the UV Lamp over by the Cuisinart.

    I don't suppose it donned on people that for most Armageddon scenarios there won't be electricity or natural gas.

    I guess you can rip up the flooring in your home and burn that as fuel.
    You are a pompous ass that assumes that no one else knows what the hell they are talking about.

    Read Nu Kua's post about solar. What is that if not UV?
    Neither do men put new wine into old bottles

  15. #15
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Wine View Post
    I own a British Berkefeld. Over the course of 5 years have had to clean the rods only twice. Which is easy, easy to do.

    If I had to get water from a pond etc, I'd filter it with cheese cloth or coffee filters first, and then into the Berkey.

    UV treatment is a good thing to kill off stuff if fuel to boil is an issue.

    For anything that escaped that process...well...I would rely on prayer.
    Now this is what I was looking for. If you have used it for five years I'm guessing it works. I just ordered mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ningishiddza View Post
    Of course. You can keep the UV Lamp over by the Cuisinart.

    I don't suppose it donned on people that for most Armageddon scenarios there won't be electricity or natural gas.

    I guess you can rip up the flooring in your home and burn that as fuel.
    In an Armageddon scenario I could burn the wood from my house. Most of it. In my Rocket Stove !!
    I could also use Ny Kua's method and then the Berkey. But I think the Berkey should be good enough.
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  16. #16
    GEAUX SAINTS! Contributor pico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nu Kua View Post
    If you were able to do the bottles-in-the-sun thing, no boil, because it's UV rays that are purifying it, not heat, though heat would mean the difference between a few hours a couple of days wait.
    We could never do that here, I imagine. But the sun's rays are stronger where you are. :)
    Just do not use brown bottles, like beer bottles and such. These are designed to block most UV light, so when you think you are drinking clean, you likely are not.

    BTW, those rocket stoves are AWSOME. If you do not understand or know what they are (obviously not TOM), then do a search and see them in action. They are extremely efficient.
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  17. #17
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    I got home today expecting to find my Berkey water purifier. Sure enough next to my front door was a box. I thought it looked maybe a little to small.
    Turned out it was the emergency food I never ordered but paid for. What a scam, but they won't get anymore money from me.

    http://forums.armageddononline.org/b...1.html?t=29961

    Was that a knock at my door ? Damn UPS is fast. Before I could open the door the truck and driver was gone. But there was my Berkey filter.
    It was very simple to put together. The priming of the filters was a little messy but that could have been me.
    Now this is coming from a cigarette smoker. I filtered my tap water. My tap water has an odor but it's not chlorine. The city stopped using that a few years ago and now I'm not sure what they use. But it is deadly to fish and wild live but safe for people to drink. That's what the city said. The Berkey removed the odor. Now as to taste.
    I'm not sure what I would call the taste of the city water. It's not a flat taste, I almost what to say metallic but that's not right. Could I tell a difference between the water ?
    You bet I could. The Berkey water was for lack of a better word, smooth.

    I will have to do a blind taste test next time my daughter comes over. She's not a smoker so I'm betting the difference will be even greater to her. Now as to the safety of the Berkey ? I'm going with the two hundred year history. That's not to say that someday down the road I won't buy a microscope and test different water to see what I can find. Now if they did things like this in school, I might not have went fishing so often......


    Quote Originally Posted by pico View Post
    BTW, those rocket stoves are AWSOME. If you do not understand or know what they are (obviously not TOM), then do a search and see them in action. They are extremely efficient.
    They are great. From a few twigs I found in my yard I boiled water. Just remember to keep a lid on the pot. It works faster. I hope I never need any of this stuff.....
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    Mayor of Hellview Contributor Marseyus's Avatar
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    Boiling water is good, but ahh all the better is to distill the water, this is easier than you would think, you don't have to have a sealed unit like in making alcohol. For water all you need is a catch pan twice the size of the opening from wherever the steam is coming from, place the catch pan 6-12 inches above the the steaming pot and tilt it just a little bit one way. The condensation will collect and fall towards the end that is tilted down, and eventually start to drip, now all you need is a glass or canteen to catch the dripping. It's the same principle as some of the solar units, just a few modifications. You can also use this method for salt water. This does NOT work for radiated, fuel tarnished, or gas tarnished water however.

    Also the army has purification tablets, they cause problems in the long run, but are good for something quick. A quick note on the tablets, the chemical taste they talk about isn't as bad in a glass or stainless container. Any other type, ESPECIALLY plastic will give a strong chemical taste.
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  19. #19
    Max Headroom Contributor UVsaturated's Avatar
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    Tired Old Man, can't you just buy a water buffalo and a gas pump and drive up to Rainbow Springs each week to get your potable water?

    How the hell does a man who lives in Florida, surrounded by water, worry about wetting his whistle?


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  20. #20
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UVsaturated View Post
    Tired Old Man, can't you just buy a water buffalo and a gas pump and drive up to Rainbow Springs each week to get your potable water?

    How the hell does a man who lives in Florida, surrounded by water, worry about wetting his whistle?
    Not a chance. I'm not sure about rainbow springs, but Zephyrhills Hills bottle water company bought up all the springs I use to go swimming in and now it is all in a bottle ! That water was so damn cold your lips would turn blue on the hottest summer day. They just may have saved my life.....

    Water water everywhere but not a drop to drink..
    I wouldn't call the Berkey a SHTF filter. Could it be use that way ? I think so.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marseyus View Post
    Boiling water is good, but ahh all the better is to distill the water
    I'm still not so sure about drinking distilled water. You can do a lot of reading on this subject.
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  21. #21
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    Just remember with UV that when it is hot you want to fill the bottle as full as possible. Little critters can grow in the hot moist air. But a drop or two of bleach can also help prevent that.

    For boiling you can keep a stock of old clean plastic water bottles. Just remover the labels. Fill them to the very rim and put the cap on you can put them right into the fire but it is best to put them into the coals on the side. It's faster than those electric teapots. You can let them cool or use the hot water for cooking or washing.

    We used to use powdered milk and chocolate to make cocoa for the kids this way when we went camping.
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    Survivalist! Traveler's Avatar
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    Do not say that there will be no electricity when the SHTF.

    a 12v supply using a car battery and a solar panel will become standard. You can make up 12v well pumps that work all right. Yes they are slow like a garden hose half on but they work.
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  23. #23
    GEAUX SAINTS! Contributor pico's Avatar
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    You could likely do even better with pumps by making them more efficient using 12 v batteries and panels wired to make them 24v, 48v, and so on. I would think the efficiency would be much better that way. I would think depending on the depth, having a higher voltage pump would serve you perhaps slightly better, but then the system would need to be tailored to your specific situation a bit.

    A still is indeed easy to make, and while the water would likely be free of some of the taint when times force people to begin using out houses and such, that would pollute groundwater fairly fast, perhaps what one would need to do is keep a water cistern with silver coins at the bottom to counter the negatives of the distilled water. Colloidal silver has so many pros, perhaps making your own silver laced water is the way to go.

    While Florida is surrounded by water, much of the water found in SE Florida is foul and braccish, or simply stagnant. The springs up in the middle part to the northeast of Tampa are almost all privately owned now, as stated by TOM.
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  24. #24
    Life is good Contributor Tired Old Man's Avatar
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    OK I should ask Anarch in his thread about the silver thing. But I'm here so I'll ask.

    How is putting a silver coin in water good for you ?
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    GEAUX SAINTS! Contributor pico's Avatar
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    It is an old wives tale... so to speak. Silver has been used for years with eating utensils. If people went back to using true silverware, then perhaps we would not get sick as often. There are a few articles on this over at www.survivalblog.com going over the benefits of this.
    I'd Rather Be A Right-Wing Nut Job Then A Liberal With No Nuts And No Job

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