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Thread: Libyan Dreams

  1. #276
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    So I did fail to click the picture links previously , my bad perhaps but the links don't offer much..

    Leader is not an office of government.

    Head of the Libyan football federation is not a governmental post.

    Two or three in charge of charities


    As for those that did hold REAL governmental offices, They did not hold those positions for life as you tried to make out.... stop bullshitting.

    Lycanox WHAT IS A DIRECT DEMOCRACY?

    WHAT IS A DIRECT DEMOCRACY Lycanox?

    How many different ways do I ask that before you stop ignoring that question? Or will you always ignore it because if you acknowledge it you might invalidate every BS thing you already said?
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  2. #277
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    Ah this is pointless... to continue Qaddafi maybe dead but the fighting continues... The people are used to a direct democracy and I doubt they will roll over and accept anything less than what they are used to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch View Post
    and so it continues... The government has been destabilized... a nation of citizens used to a direct democracy are not ready to accept anything less. Their war wages on.

    http://news.yahoo.com/rival-libyan-m...132722966.html


    Everything is under control.

    Yeah right...
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  3. #278
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch View Post
    So I did fail to click the picture links previously , my bad perhaps but the links don't offer much..

    Leader is not an office of government.

    Head of the Libyan football federation is not a governmental post.


    Two or three in charge of charities
    The argument was however how large the chance was that so many direct relatives end up in high posts.
    The chance should be practically zero unless the government is extremely corrupt.

    As for those that did hold REAL governmental offices, They did not hold those positions for life as you tried to make out.... stop bullshitting.
    So, they replaced one ghaddafi lacky with another.

    And even if they were elected. Only one third of the government was elected. Which means they had barely any political power.

    Lycanox WHAT IS A DIRECT DEMOCRACY?

    WHAT IS A DIRECT DEMOCRACY Lycanox?



    How many different ways do I ask that before you stop ignoring that question? Or will you always ignore it because if you acknowledge it you might invalidate every BS thing you already said?
    An failed type of politics where the people directly vote on issues in referendums.

    Not that Libya ever was one.
    Afteral, even in a direct government there is no supreme leader that can change the constitution as they wishes.
    And no amount of democracy works if the opposition and freedom of speech is repressed.

    So again, where is your evidence that Libya was a free democracy.
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  4. #279
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    Lycanox please stop derailing this shit... I already acknowledged that this was pointless, what more do you want? I don't have a fucking cookie to give ya. Please stop trolling the shit out this thread.

    Just in case anyone is interested the latest developments in Libya is what I was trying to talk about

    http://news.yahoo.com/rival-libyan-m...132722966.html
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  5. #280
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    ethnic cleansing as the new UN supported libyan government cements it's power

    "The Wall Street Journal reports today that Black people have been emptied from the City of Tawergha in Libya, their homes razed, and that the words "slaves" and "negroes" are scribbled on their abandoned buildings in the now ghost town by the NATO-backed rebels.

    The chilling account of ethnic-cleansing of Black people in Libya, occurring right before our eyes, appears under the headline "Revenge Feeds Instability in Libya."

    These are the "liberators" that President Barack Obama, President Nicolas Sarkozy and Prime Minister David Cameron helped install in Libya to replace Maummar al-Quathafi? They all rejected an African Union proposal that would have brought a ceasefire and the warring parties to a table to create a constitution and to hold elections.

    Meanwhile, the so-called "prime minister" of the "rebels" Mahmoud Jibril, is quoted in the Journal, with respect to the fate of the Black citizens of Tawergha, saying: "Regarding Tawergha my own viewpoint is that nobody has the right to interfere in this matter except the people of Misurata," who are actually the ones doing the cleansing. Surely Jibril knows that he's inciting to further ethnic cleansing.

    An earlier Wall Street Journal article had reported that the Misurata unit carrying out the deed is called "The Brigade for Purging Slaves, black Skin." So we are witnessing genocide of Black people in Africa again and doing nothing. Simply because Washington, London, and Paris happen to support the "rebels" who are committing the targeted killings.

    "Now, rebels have been torching homes in the abandoned city 25 miles to the south," of Misurata, reports the Journal. The Journal's reporter also witnessed the burning of "more than a dozen homes," and adds, "On the gates of many vandalized homes in the country's only coastal city dominated by dark-skinned people, light-skinned rebels scrawled the words 'slaves' and 'negroes.'"

    The White House has yet to issue a single statement condemning this ethnic cleansing of Black people. Hillary Clinton's Department of State remains mute. The leaders of organizations that profess to protect the rights of Black people, such as the NAACP's Ben Jealous and the National Urban League's Marc Morial, have yet to make statements. Surely, someone must read The Wall Street Journal."
    continued here - http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=26643
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  6. #281
    Fuq Haters Contributor Nu Kua's Avatar
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    So I guess we can compare the new Libyan Regime to the old Hitler Regime? Ethnic Cleansing. Gotta get those spots out.



    Gee, I'm so SHOCKED the West hasn't stormed in to save these poor black people.

    Hell, even Ghadaffi wasn't this bad when he was at his worst. Good thing the West rushed in to rescue.... well... hmmm.
    The irony contained in this thread, especially when considering other conversations, is fucking amazing.
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  7. #282
    Fuq Haters Contributor Nu Kua's Avatar
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    RT News:

    From shelling to selling: The scramble for Libyan contracts

    While Libya is going through a tough period of post-revolutionary development, after its infrastructure was badly damaged, countries which first bombed Libyan cities are cashing-in on rebuilding them.

    They may have helped bring down the house, but they were very careful not to burn bridges. As Libya rises from the ashes of civil war, the countries that poured oil on to the fire are now lining up to cash in by undoing the damage.

    The belief that Russia benefited a great deal from trading with the Gaddafi regime is very widespread in Tripoli, but it is simply false. In 2010, Moscow was number 17 on the list of Libya's main trading partners, accounting for just 0.4 per cent of its international trade.

    The countries that had the largest trade volumes with Gaddafi's Libya are precisely the ones that spearheaded the campaign against him – the European Union, the United States and Turkey. And they all are now jostling for contracts to rebuild Libya....
    RT News:

    In Libya, death and disappearance still stalk the land

    People are vanishing in broad daylight in Libya, as the country’s new rulers continue to settle accounts with their opponents. Widespread insecurity means the families of the kidnapped can do no more than hope that their loved ones are still alive.

    #Libya’s conflict is over, and the man who stood in the way of Western-style democracy is dead. Yet atrocities against Muammar Gaddafi’s loyalists continue. The images emerging from Libya are disturbing.

    Against this distressing background, Russia is demanding a probe into civilian casualties in Libya caused by NATO bombings.

    That's Moscow’s reaction to a report by human rights groups which claims dozens were killed in air strikes – despite the alliance saying its operation was almost flawless....


    NY Times:

    Errant NATO Airstrikes in Libya: 13 Cases

    An on-the-ground examination by The New York Times of sites across Libya that were the targets of NATO airstrikes found evidence that the air campaign was not as flawless as NATO has described. The Times found credible accounts of dozens of civilians killed in several distinct attacks, of an attack on rebels and an ambulance that NATO explicitly denied, and of structures that seem to have been hit by mistake....
    Not as flawless as NATO described? An attack proven to have occurred, yet was Explicitly Denied...Wow, imagine that.

    Errant... by mistake, of course.
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  8. #283
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    What have we done... Do supporters still support this? This Libya never existed before...the previous one was better by all standards of supporter propaganda...Bad bad bad

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3871364.story

    Libya is a lure for migrants, where exploitation waits
    Libya's relative wealth draws many Africans seeking a better life. Often they instead find abuse, imprisonment without charge and even a kind of modern-day slavery.
    And thats painting it nicely.

    Meanwhile , the standards of "civilization" A.K.A. the U.N. and the International Criminal Courts are being told to go fuck themselves because the CIA TNC wont let him go preferring instead on a quick traditional trail that will result in his execution regardless of the standards of a "civilized" trial.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...?newsfeed=true

    http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...xid=gonewsedit
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  9. #284
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    And let me guess. Syria, which has degraded in a situation between kristallnacht and civil war between the government and the people, is a complete humanitarian success.
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  10. #285
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    Cold shower report on Libya war: NATO can’t fight without US

    http://rt.com/news/libya-campaign-nato-report-084/


    Were it not for NATO US air power their would of been no rebellion.



    FROM LIBYA TO SYRIA: "WAR IS A RACKET. IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=30295

    “War is a racket. It always has been.” These words are as true now as they were when Major General Smedley Butler first delivered them in a series of speeches in the 1930s. And he should have known. As one of the most decorated and celebrated marines in the history of the Corps, Butler drew on his own experiences around the globe to rail against the business interests that use the U.S. military as muscle men to protect their racket from perceived threats. From National City Bank interests in Haiti to United Fruit plantations in Honduras, from Standard Oil access to China to Brown Brothers operations in Nicaragua, Butler pointed out how intervention after intervention served the business interests of the well-connected even as American taxpayer money went to foot the bill for these adventures. The names and places may have changed, but the old adage holds: the more things change, the more they stay the same.


    The National Transitional Council that is nominally in charge of what is left of Libya announced this week that they're beginning a probe of foreign oil contracts brokered during Gaddafi's reign by his son, Saif al-Islam. Libya is sitting on the largest oil reserves in Africa, and it is no coincidence that within weeks of the start of the NATO campaign last year the rebels had already secured the country's oil ports and refineries on the Gulf of Sidra and established their own national oil company for negotiating contracts with the invading forces. Although the oil contract probes are supposedly meant to show the transparency of the new “government” and their willingness to root out the graft and kickbacks inherent in the old regime, it's quietly acknowledged that the process will be used to reward the nations that most visibly supported last year's invasions and punish those who were more reticent.


    Surprising, then, that the first companies on the block are Italy's Eni and France's Total. Both countries fostered close ties with the NTC last year and France was the first country to officially recognize them as the government of Libya. But now Libya's general prosecutor is reviewing documents related to these companies for possible financial irregularities. The SEC is getting in on the act, too, requesting documents relating to both companies' Libyan operations to check for suspected violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. The potential blow to the European giants' share in the Libyan market is especially painful in light of the upcoming Iranian oil embargo that threatens to squeeze the crude imports of Greece, Italy and Spain. Now, as Libya ramps up oil production to pre-war levels the obvious potential winners in the probe are the American and British majors, who could end up eating up some of Eni and Total's share in Libya's oil production should the investigation lead to charges.


    China may also have reason to be wary of their standing with the new government. Chinese-Libyan ties were increasingly close in the years leading up to Gaddafi's ouster, with trade volume having reached $6.6 billion in 2010. In 2007, as the US was beginning to put AFRICOM together and the competitive scramble for African resources was heating up, Gaddafi delivered an address to the students of Oxford University where he praised China's hands-off approach to investment in Africa. At the time, Gaddafi suggested that Beijing was winning the hearts and minds of Africans with its reluctance to interfere in local politics, while Washington was alienating the population with their heavy-handed interventions. In the wake of the NATO bombing the would-be government of Libya is singing a different tune and relations with China have cooled down. Last August a senior NTC official suggested that China would be punished when it came time to award reconstruction contracts in Libya because of their initial reluctance to support the rebels. Although the statement was downplayed, it was revealed earlier this month that Chinese companies are still waiting to begin negotiations on losses to frozen and outstanding contracts worth $18.8 billion. Relations are still cordial, though, and the Libyan government is assuring China that the contracting companies will be in a better position to resume negotiations after national elections in June.


    These latest moves from Tripoli may be as much about projecting the idea that the NTC is actually functioning as a government than anything else, though. Armed militias are still waging violent turf wars throughout the country, with 26 people dying in fighting between rivals in the western town of Zwara earlier this month and 150 dying in skirmishes last month in the southern city of Sabha. One militia stormed a hotel in Tripoli and opened fire, then beat and kidnapped the manager after he told a militia member to pay an outstanding room bill. Last week hundreds marched in Benghazi to call for an end to the violence between the armed gangs. The country is deeply divided along tribal lines and armed militias still occupy government buildings and openly flaunt the pronouncements of the erstwhile government. The idea that the NTC is actually functioning as a government is a pipe dream at this point, but as long as they keep the oil pumping and the victors of last year's humanitarian love bombing get their spoils, there's hardly a peep out of Washington, Paris, or London. Smedley Butler wouldn't be surprised.

    More at the link.


    Qatar National Bank buys 49 pct stake in Libyan bank

    http://af.reuters.com/article/commod...8FF02R20120415


    Ya dont fucking say. It is nice to know the devil who owns the soul of the sold.

    DOHA, April 15 (Reuters) - Qatar National Bank (QNB), the Gulf state's largest bank, has acquired a 49 percent stake in Libya's Bank of Commerce and Development as part of the Qatari lender's aggressive expansion strategy.

    The Benghazi-based bank approved QNB as a strategic partner, according to a memorandum of understanding signed by the two institutions, a statement from QNB late on Thursday said.

    Bank of Commerce and Development, which employs around 820 people, has total assets of $2 billion and a network of 32 branches, the statement said. No other financial details of the transaction was disclosed.

    The deal "comes in line with QNB's strategic plan of international expansion in selected and promising markets,"
    So nice that a war fought by nato air power fit in line with QNBs plans.
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  11. #286
    Fuq Haters Contributor Nu Kua's Avatar
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    This thread has become like... the biggest collection of "We told you so!"'s ever on AO.



    <sighs.......................>
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  12. #287
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Not really.

    There is afteral still no evidence of a ground war. As you guyst have predicted.
    The war was a complete success. And not another entrenched war like Iraq has became.
    Nor is there any evidence for the thousands of NATO casualties.
    And the support for Ghaddafi which you guys suggested was the mayority turned out pretty much non existend even in the capital.

    And the humanitarian situation has greatly improved, especially compared with Syria, where we did not interveine. And people are still being targeted just for demonstrating for more freedom as we speak.
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  13. #288
    Lucky survivor Contributor Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nu Kua View Post
    This thread has become like... the biggest collection of "We told you so!"'s ever on AO.



    <sighs.......................>
    What can we say?

    To name but a few. A deliberate absence of regional law and order. Charia law now being enforced in Timbuktu with UNESCO remaining silent on the threat of lobbing off the hands and feet of females who refuse to wear Islamic clothing or act in an Islamic way. Chaos on the Tunisian and Algerian borders which threaten to especially destabilise Algeria and by default will be nasty for France if not stopped. And for what?

    I think we were told that we had to bring DEMOCRACY to the Libyan people. We had to free them from tyranny. We had to impose conditions that allowed Libyans free and fair elections. Well funnily enough, the Western owned CNT council has just banned all overtly Islamist parties from competing in the elections after seeing Tunisia and Egypt vote en masse for the Brotherhood. Suffice to say, an estimated 250,000 bearded Libyans with guns in the wilderness are not happy.

    From the Libyan liberators FCO travel advice website;
    We advise against all but essential travel to Zuwara, Az Zawiya, Tripoli, al Khums, Zlitan and Misrata, and the coastal towns from Ras Lanuf to the Egyptian Border, including Benghazi. We advise against all travel to all other areas of Libya.

    In general, British nationals (including dual nationals) in Libya should keep a low profile and avoid all but essential travel in their local area and to other parts of the country, particularly at night. Law and order in the country is still being re-established and the threat from crime remains high.
    http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...h-africa/libya

    Ungrateful gits. We should be drinking Starbucks on a sun kissed Tripoli terrace by now surrounded by happy, smiling, grateful Libyans.

    The best yet. Mediapart has just published documents from 2006 proving Gadhafi authorised the release of 50,000,000 euros for sarko’s election bid in 2007. Highly illegal and very explosive. If Sarko is not re-elected he will lose his Presidential immunity however I don’t think we will see a knife stuck in his (Sarko’s) bum, LIVE ON YOUTUBE, but you never know what can happen (in a French prison) and how fate can turn.

    To recap; on the 16/03/2011

    EXCLUSIVE – Gaddafi to Sarkozy: ‘give us back our money’

    Saif al-Islam: “Sarkozy must first give back the money he took from Libya to finance his electoral campaign. We funded it and we have all the details and are ready to reveal everything. The first thing we want this clown to do is to give the money back to the Libyan people. He was given assistance so that he could help them. But he’s disappointed us: give us back our money. We have all the bank details and documents for the transfer operations and we will make everything public soon.”
    It was all so unnecessary but necessary in order to enable NATO to establish a permanent base from which they can spread their own version of TERROR in the region.

  14. #289
    Lucky survivor Contributor Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Not really.

    There is afteral still no evidence of a ground war. As you guyst have predicted.
    The war was a complete success. And not another entrenched war like Iraq has became.
    Nor is there any evidence for the thousands of NATO casualties.
    And the support for Ghaddafi which you guys suggested was the mayority turned out pretty much non existend even in the capital.

    And the humanitarian situation has greatly improved, especially compared with Syria, where we did not interveine. And people are still being targeted just for demonstrating for more freedom as we speak.
    What rubbish you spout.

    It is of no concern to you nor anyone how Monsieur Assad neutralises dangerous western backed jihadists and as for the unfortunate Syrian casualties then I offer you your own words you spoke about the Libyan civilians murdered by NATO bombs; collateral damage.

    Now this is embarrassing. Provenance Libya. I wonder who was behind this.

    Lebanon holds ship 'carrying weapons for Syria rebels'


    The Lebanese navy is holding a Sierra Leone-registered ship and says it has confiscated a large consignment of arms and ammunition it was carrying.

    The 11 crew members were detained after three shipping containers full of heavy and light weapons were found on the Lutfallah II.

    The BBC's Jim Muir in Beirut says it is believed the consignment was destined for the rebels in Syria.
    Some of the arms were labelled as Libyan, says Reuters news agency.
    The ship's owner told Reuters it was due to unload in Tripoli, northern Lebanon.

  15. #290
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Storm;491100]
    What can we say?

    To name but a few. A deliberate absence of regional law and order.
    Charia law now being enforced in Timbuktu with UNESCO remaining silent on the threat of lobbing off the hands and feet of females who refuse to wear Islamic clothing or act in an Islamic way.
    So, The situation is to unstable to be of any use at the moment. We have to wait until Timbuktu has overcome that revolution before we can even reliably asses the situation.

    Offcource the minute the west does actually try to help those poor females. Your side will naturally label those females as terrorist.
    And call foul play on the whole operation.

    Chaos on the Tunisian and Algerian borders which threaten to especially destabilise Algeria and by default will be nasty for France if not stopped. And for what?
    So, so far we have yet to hear any calls for help.

    I think we were told that we had to bring DEMOCRACY to the Libyan people. We had to free them from tyranny. We had to impose conditions that allowed Libyans free and fair elections. Well funnily enough, the Western owned CNT council has just banned all overtly Islamist parties from competing in the elections after seeing Tunisia and Egypt vote en masse for the Brotherhood. Suffice to say, an estimated 250,000 bearded Libyans with guns in the wilderness are not happy.
    But I thought you guys wanted no Islamic rule in Libya. So why complain now that they are doing something against it.
    Funny, how the situation has reversed. So has the opinions of the anti Libyan side of the argument.

    Besides, it is not like the US allows every crackpot ideology to run.

    From the Libyan liberators FCO travel advice website;

    http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...h-africa/libya

    Ungrateful gits. We should be drinking Starbucks on a sun kissed Tripoli terrace by now surrounded by happy, smiling, grateful Libyans.
    Yes, because having stinking rich western douchbags drink coffee is far much important than freedom and such.
    I bet you were sheering when they demolished those occupy movements in parks. So you could go back on taking walks there.

    And didnt Ghaddafi bomb the hell out of US soldiers on their post service holidays.
    Odd to consider them good holiday caretakers for US civilians.

    Besides, I doubt we would be welcome there anyway if we ignored their screams for help.



    The best yet. Mediapart has just published documents from 2006 proving Gadhafi authorised the release of 50,000,000 euros for sarko’s election bid in 2007. Highly illegal and very explosive. If Sarko is not re-elected he will lose his Presidential immunity however I don’t think we will see a knife stuck in his (Sarko’s) bum, LIVE ON YOUTUBE, but you never know what can happen (in a French prison) and how fate can turn.

    To recap; on the 16/03/2011

    EXCLUSIVE – Gaddafi to Sarkozy: ‘give us back our money’
    That is becouse unlike your side is arguing. The west already controlled most of the Oil industry in Libya before the revolution.
    This was just another bribe from Ghaddafi to remain in control and hope the west closed their eyes for a while.


    It was all so unnecessary but necessary in order to enable NATO to establish a permanent base from which they can spread their own version of TERROR in the region.
    Yes, because NATO is in dire need of bases in that region, aside for those it already has in the direct region. Like the ones in Malta, Italy, Greece, Spain. Not to mention airship carriers and such.


    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    What rubbish you spout.

    It is of no concern to you nor anyone how Monsieur Assad neutralises dangerous western backed jihadists and as for the unfortunate Syrian casualties then I offer you your own words you spoke about the Libyan civilians murdered by NATO bombs; collateral damage.
    So answer this. How many people has NATO killed. And how many has your beloved dictator Ghaddafi and Assad killed.
    So which side is obviously trying to at least not hit the civilians.

    Besides, NATO is not shooting at people based on Ideology. Unlike your beloved mass murderer.

    Besides, wasn't it the anti Libyan side that argued that if the West was really concerned about freedom and such.
    They should also help out in Syria.
    So why bitch now NATO is actually following your requests.

    Oh how loyal your side is to their viewpoints. As long they favor the anti western argument.

    Now this is embarrassing. Provenance Libya. I wonder who was behind this.

    Lebanon holds ship 'carrying weapons for Syria rebels'
    Yet nobody cares about the Russians arming the Syrian government.
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  16. #291
    Lucky survivor Contributor Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post


    So, The situation is to unstable to be of any use at the moment. We have to wait until Timbuktu has overcome that revolution before we can even reliably asses the situation.

    Offcource the minute the west does actually try to help those poor females. Your side will naturally label those females as terrorist.
    And call foul play on the whole operation.
    Meaning what? I know your English is not that good and you often fail miserably to grasp even simple nuances but “my side”? Are we in kindergarten here?

    Accusing me of wanting to label females as terrorists is LIBELLOUS here on European soil even though your comments are on an American Server, under EU law. Do not attack me with your hysterical conjecture. If you must answer something I have posted then kindly keep to the subject matter and refrain from using personal attacks. This is trolling and coming from a moderator of this site, a site I really like along with most of the people here is quite disturbing not to mention unprofessional.

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post


    So, so far we have yet to hear any calls for help.
    Therefore you know nothing of what is going on regionally. I suggest you buy a plane ticket and go look for yourself before speaking about things you know nothing about.


    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post

    But I thought you guys wanted no Islamic rule in Libya. So why complain now that they are doing something against it.
    Funny, how the situation has reversed. So has the opinions of the anti Libyan side of the argument.
    Again you use conjecture, make accusations and try to think for me. I was pointing out glaring hypocrisy. This is NOT complaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post


    Yes, because having stinking rich western douchbags drink coffee is far much important than freedom and such.
    I bet you were sheering when they demolished those occupy movements in parks. So you could go back on taking walks there.
    Your total ignorance of language nuance is startling. Do I have to put a stupid smiley every time I want to express sarcasm? Your grasp of the English language is embarrassingly bad for a moderator of an English language website.

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    And didnt Ghaddafi bomb the hell out of US soldiers on their post service holidays.
    Odd to consider them good holiday caretakers for US civilians.
    Did he? Did he personally place the bomb? You have absolute proof of this do you?


    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    That is becouse unlike your side is arguing. The west already controlled most of the Oil industry in Libya before the revolution.
    My side?????????

    Hello, how old are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post

    Yet nobody cares about the Russians arming the Syrian government.

    22 million Syrians are very happy that Russia is legally arming Assad against dangerous jihadists with beards.

  17. #292
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    Meaning what? I know your English is not that good and you often fail miserably to grasp even simple nuances but “my side”? Are we in kindergarten here?

    Accusing me of wanting to label females as terrorists is LIBELLOUS here on European soil even though your comments are on an American Server, under EU law. Do not attack me with your hysterical conjecture. If you must answer something I have posted then kindly keep to the subject matter and refrain from using personal attacks. This is trolling and coming from a moderator of this site, a site I really like along with most of the people here is quite disturbing not to mention unprofessional.
    So it is all just a big coincidence that each time the US become more involved in a crisis. The anti western groups start labeling the protesters as terrorist. And that in nations where we not intervene the protesters are labeled heros.





    Therefore you know nothing of what is going on regionally. I suggest you buy a plane ticket and go look for yourself before speaking about things you know nothing about.
    So now you suddenly do want us to invade nations without any actual request.



    Again you use conjecture, make accusations and try to think for me. I was pointing out glaring hypocrisy. This is NOT complaining.
    And I in turn called out the hypocrisy on your side.

    Besides, its not like in the west, every party or ideology is allowed to run in elections.


    Your total ignorance of language nuance is startling. Do I have to put a stupid smiley every time I want to express sarcasm? Your grasp of the English language is embarrassingly bad for a moderator of an English language website.

    Did he? Did he personally place the bomb? You have absolute proof of this do you?
    Actually Libya openly admitted to the various terror attacks.




    My side?????????

    Hello, how old are you?
    Fine, the anti libya intervention side.



    22 million Syrians are very happy that Russia is legally arming Assad against dangerous jihadists with beards.
    Then please provide evidence that those protesting are dangerous Jihadist.
    Or that Amass has the majority of the population behind him.

    But for that we would need open and fear elections. Which ironically was what the protesters were asking for in the first place.
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  18. #293
    Lucky survivor Contributor Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    So it is all just a big coincidence that each time the US become more involved in a crisis. The anti western groups start labeling the protesters as terrorist. And that in nations where we not intervene the protesters are labeled heros.

    There are no coincidences in Western Global Policy and only an idiot could suggest otherwise. Also to have a critique of one’s own country does not make one "anti-western", whatever that means.

    It is rather strange that in our "globalised" world, our Global Village of which Netherlands has embraced fully and has done quite well out of (as all the major Imperialist powers have) , you have this notion of "our side" and anyone critical of "our side" is a traitor with no right to speak. Even more amazing of you is that this rhetoric comes from someone who in his profile says that the Netherlands is Nazi but then acts out his Nazi fantasies on this very forum.

    For your information. I can criticize my OWN government if I feel it fitting to do so and this does not make me anti-Western because for now I do not NOT live in a dictatorship and neither is A Online a dictatorship therefore stop your small minded trolling.




    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post

    So now you suddenly do want us to invade nations without any actual request.
    Please learn how to READ English as words do have meaning and I never wrote that you personally should invade. But yes. Go there as a visitor. Damas is still functioning and air travel still open to civilians. Go and see what it is like to live in one of the few remaining secular countries, including Israel, in that region of the world where all minorities are protected.


    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    And I in turn called out the hypocrisy on your side.

    Besides, its not like in the west, every party or ideology is allowed to run in elections.
    Quite right too as no country should be run by religious men whose grasp of the 21st century is firmly mired in the Middle Ages mind-set.



    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Actually Libya openly admitted to the various terror attacks.
    Oh. So now it is Libya. You first said Gadhafi. Please make up your mind. These small points are not interchangeable in order to only suit your own agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Then please provide evidence that those protesting are dangerous Jihadist.
    Or that Amass has the majority of the population behind him.

    But for that we would need open and fear elections. Which ironically was what the protesters were asking for in the first place.
    Can you prove they are NOT all Jihadists?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-7704341.html

    The Syrian opposition claimed that these and other attacks on symbols of the Syrian state are the work of the Syrian government seeking to discredit protesters. They said they were "fabricated, staged explosions". But the attacks have all the hallmarks of an al-Qa'ida operation and the CIA has confirmed that previous suicide bombings in Syria have been the work of al-Qa'ida. An al-Qa'ida inspired group called the al-Nusra Front to Protect the Levant has claimed a bomb in Damascus that killed 10 people last week.
    Get used to the idea that Assad is staying put unless something extraordinary happens like an assassination a la (or should that be Allah?) al-Hariri style. Was that not first blamed on Assad by the Western press but has since been proved to be Hezbollah that did it.

    Oh! Those naughty bearded ones have been caught out again.

    Anyway just to be clear. Are you advocating the death of hundreds of thousands of Syrians by Western intervention in order to get rid of Assad?

  19. #294
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    There are no coincidences in Western Global Policy and only an idiot could suggest otherwise. Also to have a critique of one’s own country does not make one "anti-western", whatever that means.
    I was however not pointing towards western policies. Just the flip flopping of those that held non interventionist ideas.

    It is rather strange that in our "globalised" world, our Global Village of which Netherlands has embraced fully and has done quite well out of (as all the major Imperialist powers have) , you have this notion of "our side" and anyone critical of "our side" is a traitor with no right to speak. Even more amazing of you is that this rhetoric comes from someone who in his profile says that the Netherlands is Nazi but then acts out his Nazi fantasies on this very forum.
    Speaking of Holland. That nations is still very thankful that western nations back then were willing to intervene against Hitler.

    For your information. I can criticize my OWN government if I feel it fitting to do so and this does not make me anti-Western because for now I do not NOT live in a dictatorship and neither is A Online a dictatorship therefore stop your small minded trolling.
    And I am just as free to criticize your opinion.

    Which is not trolling or fascism by the way.


    Please learn how to READ English as words do have meaning and I never wrote that you personally should invade. But yes. Go there as a visitor. Damas is still functioning and air travel still open to civilians. Go and see what it is like to live in one of the few remaining secular countries, including Israel, in that region of the world where all minorities are protected.

    Quite right too as no country should be run by religious men whose grasp of the 21st century is firmly mired in the Middle Ages mind-set.
    Than why the complains.




    Oh. So now it is Libya. You first said Gadhafi. Please make up your mind. These small points are not interchangeable in order to only suit your own agenda.
    Naturally the libian government ruled by Ghaddafi.



    Can you prove they are NOT all Jihadists?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-7704341.html
    Quite simple. Hold an election.

    Question is should we allow a government to oppress its people just due to such groups existing.
    Afteral, we would not like it if our government suddenly decided to ban all elections. Just because an terror group turns out to be active in our nation. Or an undesired political party has been formed.



    Get used to the idea that Assad is staying put unless something extraordinary happens like an assassination a la (or should that be Allah?) al-Hariri style. Was that not first blamed on Assad by the Western press but has since been proved to be Hezbollah that did it.


    Oh! Those naughty bearded ones have been caught out again.
    Its not like Abbas has ever attempted to befriend Israel. They are still kinda sour over the Gollem Hights.



    Anyway just to be clear. Are you advocating the death of hundreds of thousands of Syrians by Western intervention in order to get rid of Assad?
    NATO has shown that it can bring the amount of civilian losses down to far lower numbers than hundreds of thousands.
    While Abbas is not even trying to reduce civilian casualties.

    So, can you accept the death of thousands of civilians. While we could have helped them. Just because you are afraid to hurt some people.
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  20. #295
    Lucky survivor Contributor Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    I was however not pointing towards western policies. Just the flip flopping of those that held non interventionist ideas.
    Really? Reading your posts you get a lot of mileage out of flip flopping.

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post

    Speaking of Holland. That nations is still very thankful that western nations back then were willing to intervene against Hitler.
    How quaint to use knee jerk reactionism by comparing Assad to Hitler and so last century.


    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Than why the complains.
    What complaints and who is complaining?


    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Quite simple. Hold an election.
    Elections were held yesterday.

    A total of 7,195 candidates, including 710 women, are competing through 12, 152 electoral centers for 250-seats of the People Assembly.

    According to the General Elections' Law, there are 14,788,644 eligible voters who completed 18 years of age and have the right to participate in the elections.

    Monday's election will be the first time Syria has held multiparty elections since the adoption in February by referendum of a new constitution that ended the rule of Baath party.
    Nine parties have been created, and seven have candidates vying for a parliamentary seat.
    The region needs TIME to grow into a democracy, time, not NATO carpet bombing on behalf of the Neo Imperialists. And if in the event the Jihadists win in fair elections then so be it but it will be interesting to see how the Jihadists equate the "democracy" we want to give them with Charia law and even more interesting to see how Israel would respond to her Jihadi neighbours.

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Question is should we allow a government to oppress its people just due to such groups existing.
    Afteral, we would not like it if our government suddenly decided to ban all elections. Just because an terror group turns out to be active in our nation. Or an undesired political party has been formed.
    There is plenty injustice in our world; we could start NATO carpet bombing in Saudi Arabia for example or even Israel as According to Ehud Barak;

    Ehud Barak: Yair Lapid's party charter worse than that of Syria's rulers
    Defense Minister and Atzmaut party chief also calls Yuval Diskin arrogant, after the latter criticized Barak and Netanyahu's Iran policy.


    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Its not like Abbas has ever attempted to befriend Israel. They are still kinda sour over the Gollem Hights.
    Who is Abbas?



    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    NATO has shown that it can bring the amount of civilian losses down to far lower numbers than hundreds of thousands.
    Please provide proof to this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    While Abbas is not even trying to reduce civilian casualties.
    Abbas? Who is this person?

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    So, can you accept the death of thousands of civilians. While we could have helped them. Just because you are afraid to hurt some people.
    Don't answer a question with a question. I repeat my question ^^^ and disregard your answer until you can provide proof that NATOs way is the best way.

    This is about as close to reality as one can get;

    The West's greatest fear
    Western attempts to destroy Syria have not been going to plan, revealing that what the West fears most is a peaceful resolution to the crisis, writes Dan Glazebrook*

    The strategy was simple, clear, tried and tested. It had been used successfully not only against Libya, but also Kosovo (in 1999), and was rapidly underway in Syria. It was to run as follows: train proxies to launch armed provocations; label the state's response to these provocations as genocide; intimidate the UN Security Council into agreeing that "something must be done"; incinerate the army and any other resistance with fragmentation bombs and Hellfire missiles; and finally install a weak, compliant government to sign off new contracts and alliances drawn up in London, Paris and Washington, whilst the country tore itself apart.

    Result: the heart torn out of the "axis of resistance" between Iran, Syria and Hizbullah, leaving Iran isolated and the West with a free hand to attack Iran without fear of regional repercussions.

    This was to be Syria's fate, drawn up years ago in the high- level planning committees of US, British and French defence departments and intelligence services. But this time, unlike in Libya, it has not all gone according to plan.

    First, there was Russia and China's veto of the "regime change" resolution at the UN Security Council in October 2011, followed by a second veto in February of this year. This meant that any NATO attack on Syria would be denied the figleaf of UN approval, and seen instead as a unilateral act of aggression not just against Syria, but potentially also against China and Russia as well.

    Vicious and reckless as they are, even Cameron, Sarkozy and Obama do not necessarily have the stomach for that kind of a fight. That left the burden of destroying the Syrian state to NATO's proxy forces on the ground, the "Free Syrian Army" -- a collection of domestic and (increasingly) foreign militias, mostly ultra-sectarian Salafi extremists, along with a smattering of defectors and Western special forces.

    However, this army was not created actually to defeat the Syrian state; that was always supposed to be NATO's job. As in Libya, the role of the militias was simply to provoke reprisals from the state in order to justify a NATO blitzkrieg. Left to their own devices, they have no chance of gaining power militarily, as many in the opposition realise.

    "We don't believe the Free Syrian Army is a project that can help the Syrian revolution," said leader of the internal Syrian resistance movement Haitham Al-Manna, recently. "We don't have an example of where an armed struggle against a dictatorial regime has won." Of course, one could cite Cuba, South Vietnam, and many others, but what is certainly true is that internal armed struggle alone has never succeeded when the government is the only party in the struggle with any significant mass support, as is the case in Syria.

    This reality was brutally driven home in early March in the decisive battle for the Baba Amr district of Homs. This was supposedly one of the Free Syrian Army's strongholds, yet they were roundly defeated, leaving them facing the prospect of similar defeats in their last few remaining territories as well. The opposition groups are becoming increasingly aware that their best chance of meaningful change is not through a military fight that they will almost certainly lose, and which will get them killed in the process, along with their losing their support and credibility, but through negotiations and participation in the reform process and the dialogue that the government has offered.

    This prospect -- of an end to the civil war and a negotiated peace that brings about a reform process without destabilising the country -- has led to desperation amongst the imperialist powers. Despite their claims to the contrary, a stable Syrian-led process is the last thing they want, as it leaves open the possibility of Syria remaining a strong, independent, anti-imperialist state -- exactly the possibility they had sought to eliminate.

    Hence, within days of Kofi Anan's peace plan gaining a positive response from both sides in late March, the imperialist powers openly pledged, for the first time, millions of dollars for the Free Syrian Army: for military equipment, to provide salaries to its soldiers, and to bribe government forces to defect. In other words, terrified that the civil war in Syria is starting to die down, they are setting about institutionalising it. If violent regime change is starting to look unlikely, the hope instead is to keep the country weak and on its knees by sucking its energy into an ongoing civil war.

    At the risk of making the opposition Syrian National Council (SNC) appear even more out of touch with ordinary Syrians than it does already, its Western backers have increased the pressure on it to fall into line with this strategy, leading to open calls from the SNC leadership for both the full-scale arming of the rebellion and for aerial bombardment from the West.

    This has caused huge rifts in the organisation, with three leading members defecting last month, because they did not want to be "accomplices in the massacre of the Syrian people through delaying, cheating, lies, one-upmanship and monopolisation of decision-making." The SNC, according to one of the three, Kamal Al-Labwani, is "linked to foreign agendas that aim to prolong the battle while waiting... for the country to be dragged into a civil war."

    This month, one of the few SNC leaders actually based in Syria, Riad Turk, called on the opposition to accept the Anan peace plan, "stop the bloodshed" and enter into dialogue with the government -- a call not echoed by his fellow SNC colleagues abroad. Likewise, the main peaceful opposition grouping within Syria -- the National Coordinating Committee -- has fallen out with the SNC over the latter's increasingly belligerent role as a mouthpiece of foreign powers.

    NCC leader Al-Manna spoke out against the Free Syrian Army recently, saying "the militarisation of the Syrian revolution signifies the death of the internal revolution...We know that the Turkish government is playing an important role in the political decisions of the Free Syrian Army. We don't believe that an armed group can be on Turkish territory and remain independent of Turkish decisions."

    So, there is a growing perception, even amongst the Syrian opposition movement itself, that both the Free Syrian Army and the Syrian National Council are working in the interests of foreign powers to prolong a pointless civil war.

    Western policy-makers are playing a dangerous game. Short of a NATO attack, their best option for the destabilisation and emasculation of Syria is to ensure that the ceasefire fails and the fighting continues. To this end, they are encouraging their proxy militias to step up their provocations: the purpose of US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's and French Foreign Minister Alain Juppé's statements about "other measures" still being on the table is to keep the idea of a NATO attack alive in the heads of the rebels so that they continue to fight.

    Indeed, many more foreign fighters have been shipped into the country in recent weeks, according to The Washington Post, and these have been launching devastating bomb attacks in Damascus and Aleppo. US Ambassador to Syria Robert Ford is a protégé of John Negroponte, who organised Contra death squads to destabilise Nicaragua in the 1980s; he will almost certainly have been organising similar groups in Syria during his time there last year and for similar purposes.

    Nevertheless, the destabilisation agenda is not going according to plan. The internal opposition in Syria is becoming increasingly frustrated with the way things are progressing, and a clear split is emerging between those based outside the country, happy to see Syria consigned to oblivion in order to please their paymasters and further their careers, and those who actually have to live with the consequences.

    The reckless attacks carried out by the armed militias are increasingly alienating even those who once had some sympathy for them, especially as their foreign membership and direction is being exposed ever more clearly. Having been proven unable to win and hold territory, these militias are turning to hit- and-run guerrilla tactics. But the guerrilla, as Mao put it, is like a fish that can only survive in a sea of popular support. And that sea is rapidly drying up.

  21. #296
    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    Really? Reading your posts you get a lot of mileage out of flip flopping.
    I am only pointing it out when I see it.



    How quaint to use knee jerk reactionism by comparing Assad to Hitler and so last century.
    So, the situation was really not that much different back then as it was now.

    What complaints and who is complaining?
    About the Libyan government banning overly religious parties.




    Elections were held yesterday.
    Elections are pointless when the ruling party refuses to give up power.
    And the safety of the voters are not guaranteed.


    The region needs TIME to grow into a democracy, time, not NATO carpet bombing on behalf of the Neo Imperialists.
    The people have clearly stated that the time is now.

    And if in the event the Jihadists win in fair elections then so be it but it will be interesting to see how the Jihadists equate the "democracy" we want to give them with Charia law and even more interesting to see how Israel would respond to her Jihadi neighbours.
    So basically you are against democracy because it results in a chance that a group you don't like wins.



    There is plenty injustice in our world; we could start NATO carpet bombing in Saudi Arabia for example or even Israel as According to Ehud Barak;
    And the minute that we would actually start dealing with other injustices. The anti interventionist will suddenly start claiming that the injustice was not that wrong and we should not intervene.



    Who is Abbas?
    Sorry, meant Assad.




    Please provide proof to this statement.
    Where is your evidence for the hundreds of thousands of civilian cassualties. .



    Abbas? Who is this person?
    Meant Assad?



    Don't answer a question with a question. I repeat my question ^^^ and disregard your answer until you can provide proof that NATOs way is the best way.
    Again, provide evidence first for your claims of hunderds of thousands of civilian losses.

    This is about as close to reality as one can get;

    The West's greatest fear
    Western attempts to destroy Syria have not been going to plan, revealing that what the West fears most is a peaceful resolution to the crisis, writes Dan Glazebrook*
    This articles gives only conspiracy theories. And arguments that are best solved by an open and free election.
    Not by just letting the ruling dictator win for a while.

    And the source is just an conspiracy blog, popularized by the even worse Russian version of Fox news.

    So, needlessly to say, I remain unconvinced.
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    Lucky survivor Contributor Storm's Avatar
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    In your desperation to be “right” you resort to labelling all that you disagree with to a conspiracy theory.

    Therefore;

    Alain Juppé was not caught out falsifying reports of poor dead Jihadists disguised as Syrian civilians murdered by Assad’s troops?

    The (Syrian) detainment of 19 Frenchmen disguised as journalists were not French Special Forces?
    (That little episode blew right up in Sarko’s enraged nostrils)

    The Lutfallah II was not carrying 3 full shipping containers, containing 300,000 pounds of heavy and light artillery bound for Syrian rebels?
    btw, another ship was impounded yesterday by the Lebanese army containing;

    The two cars, searched on Monday, held 60,000 bullets including rounds for 9mm pistols and Kalashnikov (AK-47) rifles, the source said. "The ship is Italian but picked up the two cars in (the Egyptian port of) Alexandria," he added.
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...8470CA20120508

    (This is known as, in case you did not know, Arms Trafficking and is highly illegal)

    Bashir was not blamed for the assassination of Hariri when it was well known at the time it was those lovely bearded chaps called Hezbollah who were behind it?

    (Chirac even wrote in his memoires that he had accused Bashir even though he had no evidence but lying over Lebanon is normal French behaviour as the French always get stiffies at the idea of becoming Lebanon’s colonialist masters again)

    And let’s not forget this truth which was spread about in abundance by Imperialist propaganda news media outlets such as the telegraph.co.uk/The Guardian/The independent et al;

    Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction did in fact exist?

    What an MSM conspiracy that was.

    Are Human Rights Watch liars?

    Syria: Armed Opposition Groups Committing Abuses
    End Kidnappings, Forced Confessions, and Executions


    (New York) – Armed opposition elements have carried out serious human rights abuses, Human Rights Watch said today in a public letter to the Syrian National Council (SNC) and other leading Syrian opposition groups. Abuses include kidnapping, detention, and torture of security force members, government supporters, and people identified as members of pro-government militias, called shabeeha. Human Rights Watch has also received reports of executions by armed opposition groups of security force members and civilians.

    Leaders of Syrian opposition groups should condemn and forbid their members from carrying out abuses, Human Rights Watch said. Some of the statements collected suggest that certain armed attacks by opposition groups were motivated by anti-Shia or anti-Alawite sentiments arising from the association of these communities with government policies.

    “The Syrian government’s brutal tactics cannot justify abuses by armed opposition groups,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “Opposition leaders should make it clear to their followers that they must not torture, kidnap, or execute under any circumstances.”

    Human Rights Watch has repeatedly documented and condemned widespread violations by Syrian government forces, including disappearances, rampant use of torture, arbitrary detentions, and indiscriminate shelling of neighbourhoods.
    http://www.hrw.org/node/105885

    Oh those lovely cuddly bearded ones! They really need to control themselves as they make the majority of non-jihadist Muslims look bad, as you do also and constantly have done so throughout this thread.

  23. #298
    Lucky survivor Contributor Storm's Avatar
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    Sorry to the OP for that little detour into Syria.

    Back to Libya. From HRW.

    Libya: Revoke Draconian New Law

    Legislation Criminalizes Free Speech

    May 5, 2012 http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/05/05/l...conian-new-law


    (New York) – Libya’s National Transitional Council (NTC) should immediately revoke a new law that bans insults against the people of Libya or its institutions, Human Rights Watch said today. The law also prohibits criticism of the country’s 2011 revolution and glorification of the deposed former leader Muammar Gaddafi.

    The law violates Libya’s provisional constitutional covenant and international human rights law, both of which guarantee free speech, Human Rights Watch said.

    “This legislation punishes Libyans for what they say, reminiscent of the dictatorship that was just overthrown,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “It will restrict free speech, stifle dissent, and undermine the principles on which the Libyan revolution was based.”

    Under Law 37, passed on May 2, 2012, spreading “false or vicious news” or “propaganda” that harms “military efforts to defend the country, terrorizes people, or weakens the morale of citizens” is a criminal offense, punishable with imprisonment for an unspecified amount of time. Included in “propaganda” is glorification of Gaddafi, his regime, and his sons. If the offensive statements damage the country, the law says, the offender can be sentenced to life in prison.

    Anyone who does anything to “damage the February 17 Revolution” can be charged with a crime under the law and sent to prison. February 17 refers to the start of the popular uprising that overthrew Gaddafi in 2011.

    Charges can also be brought against anyone who “insults Islam, or the prestige of the state or its institutions or judiciary, and every person who publicly insults the Libyan people, slogan or flag.”

    The ban on damaging the February 17 Revolution is apparently based on article 195 of Libya’s current penal code, drafted and implemented under Gaddafi’s rule, which bans any “damage to the great al-Fateh Revolution or its leader.” The al-Fateh Revolution brought Gaddafi to power in 1969.

    Under the previous government, criticizing Gaddafi or the al-Fateh Revolution was punishable by death. Individuals were regularly imprisoned for criticizing the government, some of them under article 195 of the Libyan penal code.

    “It seems the NTC has done a ‘cut and paste’ job with the Gaddafi-era laws,” Whitson said.

    A group of Libyan human rights lawyers told Human Rights Watch that they will challenge Law 37 before the country’s supreme court.

    Libya’s constitutional covenant, passed on August 3, 2011, includes a chapter on human rights and freedoms. Article 14 ensures freedom of opinion and speech, as well as assembly.

    Under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights (ACHPR), governments may only restrict the right to freedom of expression to protect public morals if the restriction conforms to strict tests of necessity and proportionality and is non-discriminatory, including on the grounds of religion or belief. The newly enacted law fails to meet that test, Human Rights Watch said. Libya is a party to both the ICCPR and the African Charter.

    The United Nations Human Rights Committee, in its 2011 General Comment on the ICCPR’s article 19, held that the right to freedom of expression protects speech that might be deemed offensive or hurtful to followers of a particular religion, unless the speech in question amounts to “advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence.” It also said that “States Parties [to the ICCPR] should not prohibit criticism of institutions.” The Human Rights Committee is considered the authoritative interpreter of the ICCPR.

    Human Rights Watch called on governments supporting Libya’s transition, as well as the UN mission in Libya, to condemn the newest law strongly, and other unlawful attempts to restrict free speech, expression, and assembly.

    “This law is a slap in the face for all those who were imprisoned under Gaddafi’s laws criminalizing political speech, and who fought for a new Libya where human rights are respected,” Whitson said. “Libya’s new leaders should know that laws restricting what people can say can lead to a new tyranny.”

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    Iam puppy, hear me yap. Global Moderator lycanox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    In your desperation to be “right” you resort to labelling all that you disagree with to a conspiracy theory.
    Than please provide concrete evidence that it all is just one Big western plot.

    Therefore;

    Alain Juppé was not caught out falsifying reports of poor dead Jihadists disguised as Syrian civilians murdered by Assad’s troops?

    The (Syrian) detainment of 19 Frenchmen disguised as journalists were not French Special Forces?
    (That little episode blew right up in Sarko’s enraged nostrils)

    The Lutfallah II was not carrying 3 full shipping containers, containing 300,000 pounds of heavy and light artillery bound for Syrian rebels?
    btw, another ship was impounded yesterday by the Lebanese army containing;


    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...8470CA20120508

    (This is known as, in case you did not know, Arms Trafficking and is highly illegal)
    As if the other side is not doing the exact same thing.
    But then again, it apparently is not cool to complain about crimes that are not carried out by the west. Or that support the wests accusations.

    Bashir was not blamed for the assassination of Hariri when it was well known at the time it was those lovely bearded chaps called Hezbollah who were behind it?

    (Chirac even wrote in his memoires that he had accused Bashir even though he had no evidence but lying over Lebanon is normal French behaviour as the French always get stiffies at the idea of becoming Lebanon’s colonialist masters again)

    And let’s not forget this truth which was spread about in abundance by Imperialist propaganda news media outlets such as the telegraph.co.uk/The Guardian/The independent et al;
    Which has anything to do with this conflict becouse?

    Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction did in fact exist?
    Since we are lumping things together.

    Did the holocaust occur?

    Last time I checked. THe US also grabbed a lot of power in 1945 world wide.
    And there are direct connections between the holocaust and US racial hygience policies.


    So are you sure that one occured aswell.
    Afteral, if all those unrelated events are evidence that Syria and Libya are conspiracies as well.
    Than why not the holocaust.


    What an MSM conspiracy that was.

    Are Human Rights Watch liars?

    Syria: Armed Opposition Groups Committing Abuses
    End Kidnappings, Forced Confessions, and Executions




    http://www.hrw.org/node/105885

    Oh those lovely cuddly bearded ones! They really need to control themselves as they make the majority of non-jihadist Muslims look bad, as you do also and constantly have done so throughout this thread.
    And you are perfectly fine with oppressing an entire population just becouse of such groups excisting.
    Instead of giving them a chance.

    When are you going to promote dictatorship in the US to quench the hate groups there.
    Afteral, if Syria and Libya are not allowed to be free due to the existence of such groups. Than why should the US.



    Quote Originally Posted by Storm View Post
    Sorry to the OP for that little detour into Syria.

    Back to Libya. From HRW.

    Libya: Revoke Draconian New Law

    Legislation Criminalizes Free Speech

    May 5, 2012 http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/05/05/l...conian-new-law


    (New York) – Libya’s National Transitional Council (NTC) should immediately revoke a new law that bans insults against the people of Libya or its institutions, Human Rights Watch said today. The law also prohibits criticism of the country’s 2011 revolution and glorification of the deposed former leader Muammar Gaddafi.

    The law violates Libya’s provisional constitutional covenant and international human rights law, both of which guarantee free speech, Human Rights Watch said.

    “This legislation punishes Libyans for what they say, reminiscent of the dictatorship that was just overthrown,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “It will restrict free speech, stifle dissent, and undermine the principles on which the Libyan revolution was based.”

    Under Law 37, passed on May 2, 2012, spreading “false or vicious news” or “propaganda” that harms “military efforts to defend the country, terrorizes people, or weakens the morale of citizens” is a criminal offense, punishable with imprisonment for an unspecified amount of time. Included in “propaganda” is glorification of Gaddafi, his regime, and his sons. If the offensive statements damage the country, the law says, the offender can be sentenced to life in prison.

    Anyone who does anything to “damage the February 17 Revolution” can be charged with a crime under the law and sent to prison. February 17 refers to the start of the popular uprising that overthrew Gaddafi in 2011.

    Charges can also be brought against anyone who “insults Islam, or the prestige of the state or its institutions or judiciary, and every person who publicly insults the Libyan people, slogan or flag.”

    The ban on damaging the February 17 Revolution is apparently based on article 195 of Libya’s current penal code, drafted and implemented under Gaddafi’s rule, which bans any “damage to the great al-Fateh Revolution or its leader.” The al-Fateh Revolution brought Gaddafi to power in 1969.

    Under the previous government, criticizing Gaddafi or the al-Fateh Revolution was punishable by death. Individuals were regularly imprisoned for criticizing the government, some of them under article 195 of the Libyan penal code.

    “It seems the NTC has done a ‘cut and paste’ job with the Gaddafi-era laws,” Whitson said.

    A group of Libyan human rights lawyers told Human Rights Watch that they will challenge Law 37 before the country’s supreme court.

    Libya’s constitutional covenant, passed on August 3, 2011, includes a chapter on human rights and freedoms. Article 14 ensures freedom of opinion and speech, as well as assembly.

    Under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights (ACHPR), governments may only restrict the right to freedom of expression to protect public morals if the restriction conforms to strict tests of necessity and proportionality and is non-discriminatory, including on the grounds of religion or belief. The newly enacted law fails to meet that test, Human Rights Watch said. Libya is a party to both the ICCPR and the African Charter.

    The United Nations Human Rights Committee, in its 2011 General Comment on the ICCPR’s article 19, held that the right to freedom of expression protects speech that might be deemed offensive or hurtful to followers of a particular religion, unless the speech in question amounts to “advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence.” It also said that “States Parties [to the ICCPR] should not prohibit criticism of institutions.” The Human Rights Committee is considered the authoritative interpreter of the ICCPR.

    Human Rights Watch called on governments supporting Libya’s transition, as well as the UN mission in Libya, to condemn the newest law strongly, and other unlawful attempts to restrict free speech, expression, and assembly.

    “This law is a slap in the face for all those who were imprisoned under Gaddafi’s laws criminalizing political speech, and who fought for a new Libya where human rights are respected,” Whitson said. “Libya’s new leaders should know that laws restricting what people can say can lead to a new tyranny.”
    So, what. No nation is perfect. Even the liberation of europe was tainted with public executions, ethnic cleansing of germans and other severe injustices.
    That were not much better than the Nazis were.
    Now please provide evidence that they were better off under Ghaddafi. Which bombed civilians both in Libya as in europe.

    And unlike your side. I at least give freedom a chance.
    Instead of actively promoting the continual of dictatorship.


    So in the end, it boils down to this.

    Should people be allowed to pick their own government, despite the risk of them making a bad choice.
    Or is it better to oppress them under continual brutal dictatorship for their own good.
    Last edited by lycanox; May 8th, 2012 at 10:53 AM.
    http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs27/f/2008/139/8/a/logo_by_lycanox.png

  25. #300
    Lucky survivor Contributor Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Than please provide concrete evidence that it all is just one Big western plot.
    Where did I ever mention a western plot? You are conjecturing again, twisting words in order to look good. Is your self-esteem that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
    Did the holocaust occur?

    Last time I checked. THe US also grabbed a lot of power in 1945 world wide.
    And there are direct connections between the holocaust and US racial hygience policies.


    So are you sure that one occured aswell.
    Afteral, if all those unrelated events are evidence that Syria and Libya are conspiracies as well.
    Than why not the holocaust.
    Are you asking me or telling me about my thoughts on the validity of the holocaust?

    It is grotesque to even mention such a thing but hardly surprising coming from you with your obsession over anything NAZI. BTW, you are also acting in a slanderous fashion, which I am sure in real life you would not do so owing to tight European laws on slander therefore you must be some kind of internet hard man.


    Keep your NAZI bullshit to yourself. We are in 2012, not 1939. As for the rest of your hysterical conjecture, blah, blah, blah.


    Meanwhile in the real world;


    Two suicide blasts ripped through the Syrian capital today, killing 55 people and leaving scenes of carnage in the streets in the deadliest bombing attack since the country's uprising began 14 months ago, the Interior Ministry said.

    An Associated Press reporter at the scene said paramedics wearing rubber gloves were collecting human remains from the pavement after the explosions. Heavily damaged cars and pickup trucks stood smoldering in the area. The blasts ripped the facade off a military intelligence building, which appeared to be the target of the attack.

    More than 370 people also were wounded in the attack, the Interior Ministry said in a statement. The ministry, which is in charge of the country's internal security, said the explosives weighed more than 1,000 kilograms.
    The UN chief monitor, Maj-Gen Robert Mood said;

    it does not really matter who is responsible;


    So it matters not when Western backed Jihadists go on a killing spree but it is a crime against humanity when Assad protects Syrians from blood thirsty jihadists.

    video.

    http://www.euronews.com/2012/05/10/e...amascus-blast/

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