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Thread: Prehistoric Egypt

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    One left in the chamber Global Moderator TC's Avatar
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    Prehistoric Egypt

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    This coming Saturday I'll be leaving for Egypt with a study group from Stockholm's University for a week examining early climate impact and its effects on culture from the last 10,000 years.

    The focus of the study is a native group of people that make the transition from stone age to an advanced people, and it begins with the buried remains near the town of Badari, the finds indicate an age over 40 centuries before Christ.

    Examining the remains of the quite well preserved bodies, they found husks of barley, and since this does not grow wild in Egypt, this means they cultivated it and had a climate that allowed this without the use of substantial irrigation.

    Among the remains where also tools of advanced workmanship, they built boats, wove fine linen and carpets, even created perfumes! and had domesticated animals.

    They had pictograph writing that displayed their life style in detail, well beyond anything produced even in the neolithic. Pigments were diverse and the use of geometric symbols were incorporated with the artwork.

    No one knows where these early Egyptians came from, its believed this group was of Nubian/Ethiopian/ and Libyan bloodlines mixed with Semitic or Armenoid, and they inhabited most of north Africa.

    There will be two seminars on a once lush and fertile landscape that allowed this group to flourish, and the impact of desert conditions that forced later generations to hold to the banks of the Nile for survival. The big part of this ( for me anyway) is the display of drill core samples from below the sand levels of todays northern Sahara, revealing an eden of unimaginable fertility.

    Looking at the desert of todays Egypt its hard to vision a lush landscape, even more interesting is what brought on the sudden change.

    As far as I know, the hotel has some sort of Internet cafe, so I hope to get on line now and again, and I have no idea where the hell I'll buy my scotch...

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    Bite Me Contributor JenaS62's Avatar
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    Very cool trip TC! I have read that the sphinx was eroded by water. Do keep us posted on your trip.

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    I've always been interested in the possible existence of a prehistoric super-civilization, one most likely originating in the Mediterranean/North African region, but with colonies all over the planet.

    Many enormous ground structures from North America to the UK to Egypt to the Far East seem to predate conventional archaeological record, and their apparent ages are so inconsistent with with what we think we know about human evolution and civilization that science won't even attempt to explain them.

    The Great Sphinx, for example, was already very ancient, forgotten, and had fallen into disrepair when it was rediscovered by the ancient Egyptians of three to four thousand years ago. Some modern Egyptologists have noted that the body of the Sphinx is eroded NOT by ages of desert wind, but by ages of torrential rain.

    Given that the body of the Sphinx was buried in sand up until fairly modern times, this extensive water erosion could have only taken place at some time in the long distant past, when North Africa what is now the Sahara Desert was, indeed, a lush and rain-soaked landscape.

    Which would have been in the vicinity of 10,000 years ago.

    Conventional Science scoffs at the notion of an advanced megalithic culture so far back in prehistory. It doesn't fit in with accepted archaeological dogma.

    Just so, Science scoffs at the notion of a megalithic culture behind the gigantic submerged formations off the coast of Japan, formations that have been submerged for over 9000 years, by best estimates.

    In North America, massive ground structures in the area of Chillicothe, Ohio, are so extensive that they cannot even be perceived as a single structure except from an aerial vantage. These structures dwarf the base area of the Great Pyramid of Kufu, and they can be attributed to no known indigenous culture of North America. These ground structures were already ancient and forgotten when the first known humans entered the area, some 11,000 years ago.

    Now, such evidence would seem to indicate the existence of a very advanced engineering civilization upon the face of the Earth perhaps all over the face of the Earth at a time when modern Science tells us our ancestors were still running around in animal skins and huddling in caves, with no written language.

    I think new eyes and new ideas and new research will reveal the truth in this century, but we're first going to have to fight the dogmatism and narrow thinking of 20th Century Science to make any breakthroughs.

    Doc Velocity

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    When it comes to the politics of science, good luck getting anything done!
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    הלראות Contributor Beatnik Bob's Avatar
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    Enjoy your Egyptian "safari" SR!


    Quote Originally Posted by Doc V
    Given that the body of the Sphinx was buried in sand up until fairly modern times, this extensive water erosion could have only taken place at some time in the long distant past, when North Africa — what is now the Sahara Desert — was, indeed, a lush and rain-soaked landscape.
    There are also large salt deposits in the Sahara and North Africa, indicating that an ocean or sea may have been over Africa.

    I thought this was exceedingly interesting: http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/ancient_mysteries.aspx

    Concerning the course of the Nile, it has indeed been discovered that the Nile used to stretch from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, long ago: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...3112-1,00.html
    Poetry is superior to history -Aristotle
    True time is four dimensional -Heidegger
    All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players -Shakespeare

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    הלראות Contributor Beatnik Bob's Avatar
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    Hey Doc, you would probably find these two videos, by British researcher Andrew Collins to be interesting:

    + YouTube Video
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    Poetry is superior to history -Aristotle
    True time is four dimensional -Heidegger
    All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players -Shakespeare

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    One left in the chamber Global Moderator TC's Avatar
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    Interesting find in the northern Niger desert, a grave site containing some 200 human skeletons was found by a group of dinosaur bone hunters from the university of Chicago. Everywhere they dug they came up with bones that shouldn't have been there, in other words non desert species. the remains of Crocodiles, large river fish and pasturing animals where scattered around an area that is now the driest part of the Sahara.

    Hunting harpoons were found as well and huge remains of perch, suggesting the existence of a large fresh water lake, dating the bones and tools puts this group ( called Kiffians) at between 8,000 and 10,000 years old!! And these people were tall, with some skeletons over 6ft, remarkable for that age of man.

    I believe further research is going to some day unlock the past history of this once lush and fertile plain and the fantastic cultures that preceded the first Egyptian dynasty, as well as answering who really built the Sphinx.

    Climate study will play a large part in understanding what took place there some 10,000 years ago, and give us a picture of a race of people heather to undiscovered and understood. We have for to long relied on out dated research and study from the 50s that has literally over looked this garden of eden. And I believe it will one day re-write history as to who really started civilization .

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC View Post
    Hunting harpoons were found as well and huge remains of perch, suggesting the existence of a large fresh water lake, dating the bones and tools puts this group ( called Kiffians) at between 8,000 and 10,000 years old!! And these people were tall, with some skeletons over 6ft, remarkable for that age of man.
    Interesting to note that tall humans are a recurring anomaly in paleo-archaeology... They shouldn't be where they are found, and yet they are. The Tarim mummies in China, for instance, are tall, Caucasoid, red-headed enigmas, representatives of a pretty fucking technically sophisticated ancient civilization that, frankly, we're just starting to uncover... Their very existence has forced Science to rewrite the Copper Age, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

    In North America, the indigenous people of Utah still have folklore about a race of extinct red-headed giants, and a few of their skeletons may have been recovered from the mountains there in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

    The Hopi Indians of the desert southwest maintain in their ancient traditions the story of a White Brother from the East who would someday return (hasn't yet). Strangely, this White Brother/White Father story is echoed through indigenous cultures of South America, as well, including some provocative descriptions of red hair and beards (not Spaniards).

    There's also a fucking Caucasian tribe out there in the Andes somewhere.

    And now you mention these tall, sophisticated humans of North Africa dating back possibly 10,000 years.

    Yeah, I think we're on the verge of rediscovering something fucking astonishing — possibly that a super civilization did, in fact, exist in prehistory, maybe a global civilization to rival our own.

    — Doc Velocity
    Last edited by Doc Velocity; Jan 14th, 2011 at 12:41 AM.

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    הלראות Contributor Beatnik Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc V
    The Tarim mummies in China, for instance, are tall, Caucasoid, red-headed enigmas
    They're not enigmas.

    They're members of a specific tribe, the "Tocharians." Who, to this day, are a group who live near Tibet (in the Tarim Basin: Taklamakan Desert), and are of Mongoloid descent, and have red hair.

    They were never particularly advanced. Their only noteworthy aspect is red hair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    In North America, the indigenous people of Utah still have folklore about a race of extinct red-headed giants,
    No, that was actually the Inca who believe that. The Inca say it was these people that helped them build their famous stone walls. So Peru, not Utah. North American Indians don't have any belief in red-heads. And their belief of the "Great White Spirit" doesn't refer to caucasians. Hopis actually call European whites "false whites" who are greedy, unenlightened, and steal land and resources. They await the coming of the "true white spirit."


    And actually, in Central America, there is more proof that an advanced group of Africans came to the region than whites. In contemporary terms, this group was known as the "Olmec."
    Poetry is superior to history -Aristotle
    True time is four dimensional -Heidegger
    All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players -Shakespeare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    They're not enigmas. They're members of a specific tribe, the "Tocharians." Who, to this day, are a group who live near Tibet (in the Tarim Basin: Taklamakan Desert), and are of Mongoloid descent, and have red hair.
    Those are the modern descendants of interbreeding between the Caucasoid and Monogloid of ages past. The Caucasoid were technically far more advanced than the Mongols they encountered some 5000 years ago. Their fabrics were sophisticated weaves, their clothing fine, and their metal tools and weapons were at least 500 years ahead of the Bronze Age.

    These ancient Europeans were styling and profiling while the Mongol nomads were still drinking horse blood and wearing pony skins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    North American Indians don't have any belief in red-heads.
    In a word, wrong. The Ute and Paiute have traditions of an ancient war with the Pahi-zoho, the giant red-heads, who had a nasty habit of terrorizing the area indian tribes and eating their children. The Ute and Paiute called in a few other friendly tribes and drove the Pahi-zoho to the earth, eradicated them, or at least chased them the hell out of Paiute territory.

    Interestingly, in more modern times (early 20th Century), a number of tall, red-headed skeletons were recovered from guano mines in Utah, lending credibility to the Paiute stories. Supposedly, some of these skeletal remains still exist in a private museum in Colorado.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    And their belief of the "Great White Spirit" doesn't refer to caucasians. Hopis actually call European whites "false whites" who are greedy, unenlightened, and steal land and resources. They await the coming of the "true white spirit."
    I would suggest you bone up on your indigenous lore, Bob. May I suggest Frank Waters' landmark work, The Book of the Hopi, which is required reading for understanding Hopi traditions.

    The Hopi are pretty emphatic that they are the oldest people in North America, although they do acknowledge the assistance of the subterranean "Ant People" and a character to whom they refer as the True White Brother from the East. He taught them everything they knew about hunting, farming, construction, medicine, etc, and he vowed to return.

    In point of fact, when Spaniards entered the Three Mesas area of the American Southwest in the 1500s, the Hopi actually thought they WERE the True White Brothers from the East. They were dismayed to discover that the Conquistadors couldn't pass the "secret handshake," and the Hopi then knew these interlopers were false white brothers, okay.

    So, the Hopi are still waiting for the True White Brother to return with the missing piece of their sacred tablet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    And actually, in Central America, there is more proof that an advanced group of Africans came to the region than whites. In contemporary terms, this group was known as the "Olmec."
    Nope. The broad-nosed, thick-lipped Olmec stone heads to which you allude do not depict Africans, but, rather, they depict Indonesians, who undoubtedly colonized South America across the South Pacific in the long ancient past. The stonework is undeniably indonesian.

    As I mentioned elsewhere, I've been studying all this shit since the 1970s. You aren't going to slip in anything on me.

    — Doc Velocity

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    הלראות Contributor Beatnik Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Velocity View Post
    Those are the modern descendants of interbreeding between the Caucasoid and Monogloid of ages past. The Caucasoid were technically far more advanced than the Mongols they encountered some 5000 years ago. Their fabrics were sophisticated weaves, their clothing fine, and their metal tools and weapons were at least 500 years ahead of the Bronze Age.
    Even if that were true, that's not particularly impressive or groundbreaking.
    Also, Egypt was more advanced.

    And I'd like to point out that those mummies near Tibet were hardly prehistoric.

    These ancient Europeans were styling and profiling while the Mongol nomads were still drinking horse blood and wearing pony skins.
    You are comparing the term "Mongoloid" to Mongols.
    "Mongoloid" is a term that describes the race and origin of the Tocharian tribe. A tribe which originally spawned the "red haired" mummies.

    The mummies were identified to not be Caucasians who conquered Mongoloid people. They were identified as being part Caucasian and part Mongoloid people who ruled over people who were part Caucasian and part Mongoloid.

    In a word, wrong. The Ute and Paiute have traditions of an ancient war with the Pahi-zoho, the giant red-heads, who had a nasty habit of terrorizing the area indian tribes and eating their children. The Ute and Paiute called in a few other friendly tribes and drove the Pahi-zoho to the earth, eradicated them, or at least chased them the hell out of Paiute territory.
    So in other words, it's a tale or myth of an American Indian struggle with red-haired monsters.

    Interestingly, in more modern times (early 20th Century), a number of tall, red-headed skeletons were recovered from guano mines in Utah,
    Red-haired skeletons? Really?
    Care to rephrase that sentence? Or were you just bullshitting me?

    Nope. The broad-nosed, thick-lipped Olmec stone heads to which you allude do not depict Africans, but, rather, they depict Indonesians, who undoubtedly colonized South America across the South Pacific in the long ancient past.
    That's very unlikely, because Indonesia is not a place of human origin. Africa is.
    While you may be right that the Olmec heads have much in common with Indonesian stonework....I can't help but point out that Indonesian stonework has much in common with African stonework.

    Long story short, the Olmecs were still a "Negroid" race that originated from Africa. Whether you say they colonized Indonesia first and then moved onto South America could be a reasonable theory.
    However, they're still African.

    (It's more likely they went strait from Africa to South America while simultaneously going to Indonesia as well).

    Still, the point is there's more proof that Africans reached South America than Caucasians did.

    As I mentioned elsewhere, I've been studying all this shit since the 1970s.
    You aren't going to slip in anything on me.
    We will see.
    Poetry is superior to history -Aristotle
    True time is four dimensional -Heidegger
    All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players -Shakespeare

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    Bite Me Contributor JenaS62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    Long story short, the Olmecs were still a "Negroid" race that originated from Africa. Whether you say they colonized Indonesia first and then moved onto South America could be a reasonable theory.
    However, they're still African.

    (It's more likely they went strait from Africa to South America while simultaneously going to Indonesia as well).

    .

    I hate to butt in but it's never stopped me before. The Olmecs are African. It does not matter where they traveled to or in addition to, but they were fom Africa just as Bob said. I, personally, believe that they were sent/transported to South America to help with gold mining as they were highly experienced in gold mining in Africa.

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    TC--- what a great opportunity for you. Have fun and report back!

    Oh... and----


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    IT is egypt.... their is no scotch. Bring your own or hit a shop with a still as soon as you can and thats it...

    No booze in muslim countries unless you mix your own or bring your own.

    REMEMBER THAT.


    also

    ENVY ENVY ENVY,,

    I wish I was going....Bring back some good sand and dirt...in baggies.... for further examination...



    Date the sand under the paws.

    Pull a stone from the pyramid...

    Bring back what you can.

    and don't speak of the pharos pump to them... not unless you want to be kicked out... pharo pump talk is ground to get you tresspassed so keep that to yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch View Post
    Pull a stone from the pyramid... Bring back what you can.
    LOL... If you try to "pull a stone" or a fragment or a pebble from the Pyramids and get caught doing it, Zahi Hawas himself will throw you into an Egyptian dungeon to rot with the others. Hawas has zero tolerance for looting, or even TALK of looting in Egypt. And he has the power to permanently ban anyone who crosses him.

    Doc Velocity

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    Quote Originally Posted by TC View Post
    This coming Saturday I'll be leaving for Egypt with a study group from Stockholm's University for a week examining early climate impact and its effects on culture from the last 10,000 years.

    The focus of the study is a native group of people that make the transition from stone age to an advanced people, and it begins with the buried remains near the town of Badari, the finds indicate an age over 40 centuries before Christ.

    Examining the remains of the quite well preserved bodies, they found husks of barley, and since this does not grow wild in Egypt, this means they cultivated it and had a climate that allowed this without the use of substantial irrigation.

    Among the remains where also tools of advanced workmanship, they built boats, wove fine linen and carpets, even created perfumes! and had domesticated animals.

    They had pictograph writing that displayed their life style in detail, well beyond anything produced even in the neolithic. Pigments were diverse and the use of geometric symbols were incorporated with the artwork.

    No one knows where these early Egyptians came from, its believed this group was of Nubian/Ethiopian/ and Libyan bloodlines mixed with Semitic or Armenoid, and they inhabited most of north Africa.

    There will be two seminars on a once lush and fertile landscape that allowed this group to flourish, and the impact of desert conditions that forced later generations to hold to the banks of the Nile for survival. The big part of this ( for me anyway) is the display of drill core samples from below the sand levels of todays northern Sahara, revealing an eden of unimaginable fertility.

    Looking at the desert of todays Egypt its hard to vision a lush landscape, even more interesting is what brought on the sudden change.

    As far as I know, the hotel has some sort of Internet cafe, so I hope to get on line now and again, and I have no idea where the hell I'll buy my scotch...

    Sounds like one hell of a trip! Wish I were going.

    Egypt has a great AND varied history, and it has nothing to do with aliens or spaceships. They were obviously just different enough from others around them that they took control, and advanced civilization by an enormous amount.

    I have no doubt that MUCH more will be found there, and we will, in time, understand more about them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    Even if that were true, that's not particularly impressive or groundbreaking. Also, Egypt was more advanced.
    The "advanced" civilizations of Upper and Lower Egypt were HARDLY advanced at the time of the rise of Chinese civilization, about 4000 years ago. China had already developed the blast furnace for forging advanced metal alloys and tools and weapons, while the Early Dynastic cultures of Upper and Lower Egypt were still working with primitive stone tools.

    However, the very ancient Caucasoid civilization that spanned Europe AND Asia dates back to beyond 5000 years ago, BEFORE the rise of either "advanced" Chinese OR Egyptian civilizations.

    The Caucasoid mummies of China, which have been dated by various researchers at between 3000 and 5000 years old, had distinct genetic markers linking them to bloodlines of ancient Europe. NOT to the Mongoloid bloodlines of China, but to Europe.

    Beyond that, at least one of these ancient Caucasians, the so-called "Ice Man" of the Italian Alps, is definitively dated at 5000 years old, and was, in fact, in possession of a fine, forged copper axe some 1000 years earlier than the "official" Copper Age... Which caused paleo-archaeologists to REWRITE the books on the Copper Age.

    So, the technically-sophisticated Caucasian civilization — that was stomping around Europe AND Asia even before the rise of Chinese civilization — was already in possession of advanced metallurgical techniques while Egyptians were still hammering stone-on-stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    And I'd like to point out that those mummies near Tibet were hardly prehistoric.
    When they were first discovered, carbon dating on their clothing and flesh returned some astonishing results — that they were between 7000 and 11,000 years old. Dogmatic archaeologists simply couldn't accept that finding, and a number of subsequent tests have revised those ages downward to between 3000 and 5000 years old. Seemingly, Science was intent on FORCING the mummies to fit into a more acceptable timeline.

    In the case of the "Ice Man," however, they were compelled to rewrite the books, re-dating the Copper Age by over 1000 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    "Mongoloid" is a term that describes the race and origin of the Tocharian tribe. A tribe which originally spawned the "red haired" mummies.
    Again, the "red-haired" mummies are NOT Mongoloid, they are Caucasians with distinct Caucasian features and genetic markers linked to European bloodlines. Do your Science, Bob. Advanced Caucasians were not even supposed to EXIST at this time, in Europe OR Asia, yet the evidence is mounting that an entire civilization of sophisticated Caucasians existed — possibly colonizing many parts of the world — while Chinese and Egyptian civilizations were still in the cradle.

    I know, it's not politically correct these days to suggest that Caucasians were the FIRST to do ANYTHING, but Science is Science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    So in other words, it's a tale or myth of an American Indian struggle with red-haired monsters.
    Hey, YOU were the one who claimed that there were NO TRADITIONS or legends of "red heads" among North American aborigines. I presented evidence of just such traditions and legends, and now you're calling it a myth without even researching it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    Red-haired skeletons? Really?
    Care to rephrase that sentence? Or were you just bullshitting me?
    Bob, if you knew what you were talking about — which it seems you don't — you'd know that there are MANY cases of mummified human remains that still have hair, and even skeletons that still have hair remnants. Even your precious "Mongoloid" mummies still had big, beautiful hanks of red hair in braids. I'd like to know why you're so insistent on calling bullshit instead of doing your research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    That's very unlikely, because Indonesia is not a place of human origin. Africa is.
    Well, Bob, you just don't know that. What paleo-archaeologists are rapidly coming to realize today is that evidence of sophisticated ancient human presence is popping up all over the world, pushing BACK the accepted timeline of Homo sapiens by hundreds of thousands of years — by as much as 750,000 years, as a matter of fact — which obliquely suggests not only a non-African cradle of human origin, but MULTIPLE origins for Homo sapiens, which is a REAL mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    While you may be right that the Olmec heads have much in common with Indonesian stonework....I can't help but point out that Indonesian stonework has much in common with African stonework... Long story short, the Olmecs were still a "Negroid" race that originated from Africa. Whether you say they colonized Indonesia first and then moved onto South America could be a reasonable theory.
    However, they're still African. ...the point is there's more proof that Africans reached South America than Caucasians did.
    Dead wrong, and without a leg to stand on, Bob. See, while the Olmec heads have been pretty definitively dated at around 3400 years old, THERE IS NO comparable stonework of that style or age found anywhere in Africa. See, you CAN'T SHOW ME an "Olmec head" that was ever found in Africa. They don't exist. They exist in Central America, but not in Africa. There's no link to Africa.

    Mesoamerican archaeologist and historian Karl Taube, one of the most distinguished experts on Pre-Columbian civilization in the Americas, has pretty well put the African origin of the Olmecs to rest...

    Professor Taube says: "There simply is no material evidence of any Pre-Hispanic contact between the Old World and Mesoamerica before the arrival of the Spanish in the sixteenth century.", p. 17. Davis, N. "Voyagers to the New World" University of New Mexico Press, 1979 ISBN 0-8263-0880-5 Williams, S. "Fantastic Archaeology" University of Pennsylvania Press, 1991 ISBN 0-8122-1312-2 Feder, K.L. "Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries. Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology" 3rd ed., Trade Mayfield ISBN 0-7674-0459-9

    So, there is NO EVIDENCE to link the Olmec heads to Africa. The theory is rejected by virtually ALL archaeologists and historians. You're pitching your wishful thinking here, Bob, instead of Science.

    — Doc Velocity
    Last edited by Doc Velocity; Jan 14th, 2011 at 12:17 AM.

  18. #18
    הלראות Contributor Beatnik Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Velocity View Post
    The "advanced" civilizations of Upper and Lower Egypt were HARDLY advanced at the time of the rise of Chinese civilization, about 4000 years ago.
    Yes, the Egyptians were so un-advanced, in fact, that they created the pyramids--structures that modern engineers would have extreme difficulty building without the use of modern machines.

    However, the very ancient Caucasoid civilization that spanned Europe AND Asia dates back to beyond 5000 years ago, BEFORE the rise of either "advanced" Chinese OR Egyptian civilizations.
    First of all, if this "caucasoid civilization" were so great, advanced, and huge, there would be infrastructure left over.
    Where is the infrastructure?

    In the Indus valley there are extremely old traces of advanced civilization. Civilization that predates anything possibly "Caucasoid." The only prehistoric Caucasian thing is stone henge (which I admit, was an amazing feat. But there were no buildings, no nothing left behind. Just a religious landmark/calendar: stone henge).

    However, to date the Egyptians built the pyramids, and the Chinese built lasting infrastructure, and the Harappan people had cities with sewage and water drainage systems.
    "Caucasoid civilization" doesn't even come close to rivaling these achievements. If such a civilization even existed.

    The only thing "Caucasian" that happened in Asia is that Caucasian nomads emigrated through Europe. They weren't advanced, they built no infrastructure, they produced nothing of note. However, their descendants survive today in the Tarim Basin.

    The Caucasoid mummies of China, which have been dated by various researchers at between 3000 and 5000 years old, had distinct genetic markers linking them to bloodlines of ancient Europe.
    No one doubts that. The Tocharian after all speak an Indo-European language.
    And no, all proof points the the Tocharians living in the Tarim Basin from 1800 BC onward.
    There are no figures above that. The mummies in the Tarim Basin are about 4000 years old.
    Whereas, Egyptian mummies are upwards of 8000 years old. (6000 BC).

    NOT to the Mongoloid bloodlines of China, but to Europe.
    Well, they're both.
    The tribal Indo-Europeans met tribes from the Tibetan plateau when they emigrated east.

    Beyond that, at least one of these ancient Caucasians, the so-called "Ice Man" of the Italian Alps, is definitively dated at 5000 years old, and was, in fact, in possession of a fine Bronze axe some 500 years BEFORE the "official" beginning of the Bronze Age... Which caused paleo-archaeologists to REWRITE the books on the Bronze Age.
    I liked Laz's response to this, when you brought this up in a different thread.

    Laz pointed out that you were confusing "5000 years ago" with 5000 BC. The Ice Man is just a Caucasian with a copper axe from 3000 BC. And he did not even remotely rewrite the books.
    If the Ice Man was, say, 3000 years older, then that would have been an interesting find.

    Ice Man rewrote nothing. And he is hardly prehistoric. He's younger than the pyramids by a few millennium.


    So, the technically-sophisticated Caucasian civilization — that was stomping around Europe AND Asia even before the rise of Chinese civilization — was already in possession of advanced metallurgical techniques while Egyptians were still hammering stone-on-stone.[/Quote]
    Again, Egyptians built pyramids 8000 years ago. A great feat. And a Caucasian in the alps had a copper axe 5000 years ago. Wow, I'm so impressed...
    And nowhere in any Egyptian paintings or murals are there depictions of "white people."
    In the pyramids, I think there are some depictions of Nubians, but that's about it.
    The 5000 year old man with an axe doesn't even come close to rewriting anything when compared with a culture that produced monuments so great (pyramids) that they could barely be reproduced today.

    In the case of the "Ice Man," however, they were compelled to rewrite the books.
    Why would a dead guy in the mountains with a copper axe from only 5000 years ago re-write the books on anything?

    Again, the "red-haired" mummies are NOT Mongoloid, they are Caucasians with distinct Caucasian features and genetic markers linked to European bloodlines. Do your Science, Bob. Advanced Caucasians were not even supposed to EXIST at this time, in Europe OR Asia, yet the evidence is mounting that an entire civilization of sophisticated Caucasians existed — possibly colonizing many parts of the world
    Is this an elaborate joke? "Mounting evidence?" Really? There's not a shred of evidence except some mummified red-haired Tocharians and a guy with a copper axe from 3000 BC.

    — while Chinese and Egyptian civilizations were still in the cradle.
    Really? Chinese and Egyptian civilizations were in their cradle in 3000 BC? Really?
    Are you actually being serious?

    I know, it's not politically correct these days to suggest that Caucasians were the FIRST to do ANYTHING, but Science is Science.
    More like pseudo science.
    And no. There is no ancient infrastructure in Europe for any civilization. Central and Western Europeans didn't know what civilization was until the Romans brought it to them. (To which I might add...the place where Rome is now was originally a Phoenician trading station).

    Hey, YOU were the one who claimed that there were NO TRADITIONS or legends of "red heads" among North American aborigines. I presented evidence of just such traditions and legends, and now you're calling it a myth without even researching it.
    Wait, so you actually believe that a story about giant red-heads eating American Indian babies, etc. is accurate?
    For now, I'm going to stick with myth. To which I might add, just because it's a myth doesn't mean it isn't based on something that actually happened. Even if red-heads lived in North America with Hopis, the story is still a myth.

    Bob, if you knew what you were talking about — which it seems you don't — you'd know that there are MANY cases of mummified human remains that still have hair, and even skeletons that still have hair remnants. Even your precious "Mongoloid" mummies still had big, beautiful hanks of red hair in braids. I'd like to know why you're so insistent on calling bullshit instead of doing your research.
    You said "skeletons" not mummies.
    If you had chosen to phrase it better, I might not have gotten a laugh at your expense.

    Ok, so were they red-haired mummies found in North America, or were they "red-haired skeletons"?
    And if they are red-haired mummies, prove it.


    Well, Bob, you just don't know that. What paleo-archaeologists are rapidly coming to realize today is that evidence of sophisticated ancient human presence is popping up all over the world, pushing BACK the accepted timeline of Homo sapiens by hundreds of thousands of years — by as much as 750,000 years, as a matter of fact — which obliquely suggests not only a non-African cradle of human origin, but MULTIPLE origins for Homo sapiens, which is a REAL mystery.
    That's true, they're constantly pushing the dates of civilization back. But not for Caucasian civilization, they are doing this as they find new, and older, evidence of Chinese, Egyptian, Indus, Mesopotamian (and mound builder) civilizations.

    There is no civilization that formed along the Danube, or Rhine or wherever.

    There is proof that an ancient civilization was near Kiev, but that's not exactly a Caucasian civilization. Because it was confined to that area above the Black sea.
    And the "Kiev" civilization has not pressed the envelope on any dates.

    Dead wrong, and without a leg to stand on, Bob. See, while the Olmec heads have been pretty definitively dated at around 3400 years old, THERE IS NO comparable stonework of that style or age found anywhere in Africa. See, you CAN'T SHOW ME an "Olmec head" that was ever found in Africa. They don't exist. They exist in Central America, but not in Africa. There's no link to Africa.
    Nobody said the heads were built by Africans. The head obviously depicts an African ruler. It's fairly clear that meso americans made it. Toltec or Mayan.

    So, there is NO EVIDENCE to link the Olmec heads to Africa. The theory is rejected by virtually ALL archaeologists and historians. You're pitching your wishful thinking here, Bob, instead of Science.
    First of all, there is no evidence of a Caucasian civilization, and the theory is rejected by virtually all archeologists and historians.
    So that goes both ways.

    And to be honest, the archeologists can't know for sure concerning the Olmec heads. All they know is the Olmec head seems to depict an African. Though it may not.
    The details of the group known as the "Olmec" are completely vague and (for lack of anything less cliche) "shrouded in mystery."

    But frankly, it doesn't bother me if it turns out to be non-African. Because I was merely using this as proof that there is more proof for Africans visiting Central America than Caucasians.
    Just sayin.

    Professor Taube says: "There simply is no material evidence of any Pre-Hispanic contact between the Old World and Mesoamerica before the arrival of the Spanish in the sixteenth century."
    Good job Einstein, you just quoted a professor who completely disagrees with your position.

    According to that particular professor, nobody went there. Not Caucasians, not Olmecs, nobody.

    Which, by the way, is false. There is now sizable evidence that the Chinese reached the area in the 14th century, or so. As Chinese maps from before Columbus's journey depict the Western Coast of the United States.

    Whether the Chinese made contact with the native tribes is unknown. What is known, is that the Chinese certainly brought back a cactus plant that was indigenous to the American South West.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    In the Indus valley there are extremely old traces of advanced civilization. Civilization that predates anything possibly "Caucasoid."
    And, yet, the indigenous people of India are, indeed, Caucasian. Look it up. You seem to have trouble distinguishing Caucasian from "fair skinned, blue-eyed"... The term "Caucasian" refers to certain skeletal facial features, NOT to skin pigmentation. The Indians are Caucasian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    The mummies in the Tarim Basin are about 4000 years old. Whereas, Egyptian mummies are upwards of 8000 years old. (6000 BC).
    Really? Your dates are wrong by as much as 3000 or even 4000 years. Let's ask Zahi Hawas, the Egyptian Minister of Antiquities and Director General of Giza...

    "People have been excavating in Egypt for the last 200 years. No single artifact, no single inscription, or pottery, or anything has been found until now, in any place to predate the Egyptian civilization more than 5,000 years ago."
    So, according to Hawas, who I DEFY you to challenge, your information is wrong by as much as 3000 years. There was NO Egyptian civilization before 5000 years ago, according to Hawas, meaning 3000 BC... Now, who are YOU quoting?

    Archaeologists place the age of the Great Pyramid of Kufu at around 3800 years (built around 1800 BC).

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    Laz pointed out that you were confusing "5000 years ago" with 5000 BC. The Ice Man is just a Caucasian with a copper axe from 3000 BC. And he did not even remotely rewrite the books.
    If the Ice Man was, say, 3000 years older, then that would have been an interesting find.
    I haven't misinterpreted what 5000-years-old means. I do not confuse BC dates, as you obviously do. The Ice Man was walking around with a fine copper axe BEFORE Egyptian civilization crawled out of the cradle, in 3000 BC, with NO metal-working technology.

    To say that the Ice Man "did not even remotely rewrite the books" is to expose your fundamental ignorance of archaeology. The Ice Man was actually dated at between 5300 and 5350 years of age and was carrying a fine copper axe head (a FORGED copper axe head) about 1000 years before archaeologists believed humans started forging copper, nevermind Bronze.

    They had to REWRITE the books on the Copper Age because of the Ice Man. And you think that's unremarkable?

    — Doc Velocity
    Last edited by Doc Velocity; Jan 14th, 2011 at 12:31 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Velocity View Post
    And, yet, the indigenous people of India are, indeed, Caucasian. Look it up. You seem to have trouble distinguishing Caucasian from "fair skinned, blue-eyed"... The term "Caucasian" refers to certain skeletal facial features, NOT to skin pigmentation. The Indians are Caucasian.
    Obviously Doc.
    I'm the one that pointed this out to you in the last thread. Don't think I don't know, or do you not remember?

    No, I'm using your definition. Your definition says "European."
    People from the Indus valley, Mesopotamia, Iran; Anatolia are all Caucasians. However, they are not Europeans.
    And they never made up a vast "Caucasian civilization."


    So, according to Hawas, who I DEFY you to challenge, your information is wrong by as much as 3000 years. There there was NO Egyptian civilization before 5000 years ago, according to Hawas, meaning 3000 BC... Now, who are YOU quoting?
    You're twisting Hawas's words. There was civilization in 6000 BC.

    Evidence?
    The site known as "Merimda," in Lower Egypt.
    And then of course there was the Mosyllonian civilization near Somalia. About 8000 years ago.

    Archaeologists place the age of the Great Pyramid of Kufu at around 3800 years (built around 1800 BC).

    I haven't misinterpreted what 5000-years-old means. I do not confuse BC dates, as you obviously do. The Ice Man was walking around with a fine copper axe at a time when Egyptians were just crawling out of the cradle, in 3000 BC, with NO metal-working technology.
    Egyptian civilization is understood to have started in 6000 BC (8000 years ago). That is when sites like Merimda were created.

    To say that the Ice Man "did not even remotely rewrite the books" is to expose your fundamental ignorance of archaeology.
    Laz pointed this out, and Laz is an actual historian.

    The Ice Man was actually dated at between 5300 and 5350 years of age and was carrying a fine copper axe head (a FORGED copper axe head) about 1000 years before archaeologists believed humans started forging copper, nevermind Bronze.
    His copper axe fell within the right age.

    They had to REWRITE the books on the Copper Age because of the Ice Man. And you think that's unremarkable?[/Quote]
    First of all.
    I can't help but notice that you could produce no infrastructure for your famed civilization.
    You would think that if the Ice man came from a civilization where axes were commonly forged (and not just a tribe that could forge an axe) there would be massive infrastructure. Such as actual forges and cities all over.

    But no, ice man is a tribal blip. He's on the same page as the Egyptians. Actually--farther behind because the Egyptians actually had a flourishing society by the Nile a few millennium before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    You would think that if the Ice man came from a civilization where axes were commonly forged (and not just a tribe that could forge an axe) there would be massive infrastructure. Such as actual forges and cities all over.
    Throughout several of my posts over several weeks, I have established, time and again, that there is evidence of a super-ancient civilization upon the face of this planet.

    In North America, there is evidence of thousands of prehistoric copper mines around the Great Lakes, with NO evidence of who excavated them, and no evidence of where a hundred million pounds of native copper went.

    In North America, in Colorado, there is evidence of ancient coal mines at unheard-of depths (over 800 feet deep) with heavily oxidized coal deposits (having been exposed to air for centuries, at least, if not thousands of years). Again, no indigenous people can take credit for these engineering marvels. It must have been a long-forgotten, technically sophisticated civilization.

    In North America, around the Great Lakes and in other regions, runic tablets and inscriptions have been discovered. No, there is no evidence that they are modern hoaxes, but these are probably remnants of ancient Scandinavian visitation.

    In North America, again, truly massive ground structures exist around the area of Chillicothe, Ohio — Serpents Mound is one, but there are others — which rival the pyramids of Egypt for their scale and complexity. Again, no indigenous people of North America can take credit for these structures.

    Now, that's just in North America. These enigmatic archaeological sites are largely ignored by mainstream Science. They are seldom definitively explained, and are usually left to commercial tourism as the curiosities they are.

    Taken together with North and South American aboriginal legends of "white brothers" and "red-headed" people who vowed to someday return, I think the collective evidence points to a very ancient and sophisticated civilization that, at one time in the distant past, did indeed occupy North and South America, as well as Africa, Europe and Asia, where many enigmatic structures still exist.

    Stonehenge, for instance, is OLDER than the Egyptian civilization (but about the same age as the Ice Man) and couldn't possibly have been built by the later, technically lacking "Druids"... The various henges and monolithic structures of the UK and Europe are true mysteries. Nobody knows WHO the fuck built them.

    Now, this, to me, is evidence of an infrastructure of a very, very ancient civilization that may have colonized the entire fucking globe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    But no, ice man is a tribal blip. He's on the same page as the Egyptians. Actually--farther behind because the Egyptians actually had a flourishing society by the Nile a few millennium before.
    Once again, I provided a QUOTE from Zahi Hawas stating, unequivocally, that there was no evidence to suggest Egyptian civilization was older than 5000 years. Hawas said it, I didn't "twist his words"... Meanwhile, you haven't produced one source for Egyptian civilization being 8000 years old. Because it's not.


    — Doc Velocity
    Last edited by Doc Velocity; Jan 14th, 2011 at 2:24 AM.

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    Fuck, this isn't rocket science, Bob... Type the words "How Old is Ancient Egyptian Civilization?" into your search engine.

    LOL

    The modern Encyclopedia Britannica says, in it's "Introduction to Ancient Egyptian Civilization": About 5000 years ago, the civilization of ancient Egypt began in the Nile River valley.

    Now, those are the first words the Encyclopedia Britannica utters on the subject. Egyptian Minister of Antiquities Zahi Hawas says that there is NO EVIDENCE to suggest ancient Egyptian civilization is older than 5000 years.

    So, where are you getting this "8000 year old" bullshit, Bob?

    Doc Velocity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    I'm the one that pointed this [that Caucasian is a skeletal description, not a description of pigment] out to you in the last thread. Don't think I don't know, or do you not remember?
    I've been pointing out the actual definition of Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid to people for about 30 years, every time some racially-charged discussion pops up. You didn't enlighten me in this area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beatnik Bob View Post
    No, I'm using your definition. Your definition says "European." People from the Indus valley, Mesopotamia, Iran; Anatolia are all Caucasians. However, they are not Europeans.
    And they never made up a vast "Caucasian civilization."
    I'm not confusing Caucasians with Europeans. Certainly, all indigenous Europeans may be Caucasian, but all Caucasians are not European. The Caucasian race made several pushes outward into Europe and across Asia in the dim recesses of history.

    My point was and is that the Caucasian mummies of China have been definitively linked to Caucasian bloodlines in Europe, not merely as Caucasians, but as European Caucasians.

    The Ice Man was probably of their same civilization — he was Caucasian, he fits right in with the age of the Chinese mummies, AND he had acupuncture tattoos along his spine.

    Acupuncture tattoos. Those are tattoos showing where to stick an acupuncture needle in order to alleviate some troubling symptom, right.

    In the case of the Ice Man, his acupuncture tattoos indicated that he had gall bladder trouble. A necropsy (autopsy) on the Ice Man revealed that he did, indeed, have severe gall bladder problems, which reinforced the idea that his tattoos were, indeed, acupuncture tattoos.

    The cause of his gall bladder problems was arsenic poisoning. You know where you get arsenic poisoning, right? From breathing the fumes of a metal furnace, such as a copper-smelting forge.

    Point is, the Ice Man not only was carrying a fine copper axe a thousand years before he SHOULD have been carrying one, but he was also undergoing acupuncture therapy a thousand years before it was supposedly invented in China.

    Now, all this evidence is starting to look mighty suspicious. We have a Caucasian European in the Alps with a copper axe he shouldn't have, with tattoos he shouldn't have for a therapy that wouldn't exist for another thousand years.

    And you don't consider this archaeologically significant?

    At about the same time the Ice Man was trudging around the Alps, here are these European Caucasians out in China — clearly out-of-place — with fine textiles and jewelry and cosmetics and copper tools and all this shit, when the Mongoloids in China/Tibet are just coming out of a savage nomad stone age.

    Thereafter, Chinese civilization takes off, they start using furnaces and smelting and forging and all that shit, while Egyptian "civilization" is still using wooden and stone tools, okay.

    Now, it's starting to appear that this European/Caucasian culture (civilization) was pretty fucking advanced for over 5000 years ago, but nobody knows WHY or how they got to that place in advance of everyone else.

    As I've pointed out, SOMEBODY was mining copper and coal in the Americas in prehistory. WHO WAS IT?

    — Doc Velocity
    Last edited by Doc Velocity; Jan 14th, 2011 at 2:36 AM.

  24. #24
    i rule, u serve dinner tahn1000's Avatar
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    i wish i had the connections to do archaeological trips all over the world.

    my personal theories about egypt (and africa) are these
    - until about approx 6000BC the sahara desert was the sahara RAINFOREST and it covered most of the top half of africa.
    - it was catatostropically detroyed by non-human agencies and the peoples of north africa migrated eastwards, making up the nubians and the occupants of petra (other locations i couldn't guess at).
    - in ancient egypt i remember the oldest pillars were decorated by leaves, vines and flowers (at times like this i wish i'd kept those old school books), but as you got closer to recent, the leaves and vines became more and more stylized as sculptors didn't have the living plants anymore and forgot what they looked like, until eventually pillars remained plain.
    - also a rainforest, for it's continued survival, depends on sheer size. a rainforest attracts clouds and rain (hence RAINforest), and it's own closed cycle of growth and decay - ie, the plants depend solely on the rot of dead plant material for it's nutrients and minerals. when a rainforest is thinned too much or acreage reduced past a critical point, it simply dies - unable to draw the clouds for rain, and unable to draw sufficient nutrients from the lost dead plant matter. the entire cycle is disrupted and collapses. something happened to destroy the sahara rainforest, leaving desert.
    "your god is not mine (john 8:37-40)"
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    doc velocity, the anoich civilization/empire was around as early as 100000BC, and the babylonians (pre jewism) were trading with the chinese 5000BC. i saw a chinese archeological documentary about a "city of the dead", which was a palace complex, and in bass-relief on the wall was larger than life figures of men. i immediately recognized one of them as being a babylonian, and with the very fine plaiting of his almost floor length beard, suspect he was probably an emissary of high ranking, possibly a personal representative of the babylonian king at the time.
    "your god is not mine (john 8:37-40)"
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