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Thread: but arent all religions the same?

  1. #26
    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phedrereine View Post
    Ah, okay. I see what you mean. I got caught up in your including "respect" in your definition of tolerance, and "that you give the same respect to others of differing beliefs than your own that you expect for yourself." I don't agree with that in particular, because, for example, a Wiccan who humbly sees all gods of all religions as facets, simply different but valid ways of seeing the same thing, should, I think, expect much more respect for their core beliefs than some Bible Thumper should expect for his, claiming that his vision of God is right and no other religion has validity.

    But yes, even the Bible Thumper should receive tolerance to believe as he wants (though not respect)... as long as he is not causing any harm. As much as I hate arrogant claims and beliefs, I concede that people shouldn't be persecuted for them in and of themselves. But once the arrogant thoughts turn to harmful actions, that is where tolerance should end.
    Yes, that. I meant respect for the individual to choose as he/she believes, even as we may disagree with those beliefs. We respect their capacity to choose what's best for themselves, and to enjoy the freedom to practice their beliefs as long as they do not harm or repress others.

    The original complaint of the op is not actually about tolerance for people to believe as they wish, as christians are so vocal about proclaiming is their exclusive prerogative, but more about the sort of faiths that you describe. It's simply a complaint about a particular faith that advocates a view of seeing the divine in every spirit driven path. Again, a plea, if you will, to impose their authoritarian judgment and restriction on a religion that doesn't submit to the superiority of their religio-political dictates.

    The complaint is that the government doesn't enforce their authority to force their beliefs (political and otherwise) and restrictions on everyone else.

  2. #27
    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    Here's an example of the type of government a large group of christians (including very prominent political figures) wishes to impose on the world. I made another post about a practice I just discovered called spiritual mapping. It's an effort by christians to pinpoint locations -- cities and towns -- that they think have "demonic" influences (read: beliefs that are not fundamentalist christian). They then infiltrate these communities to instigate their "spiritual warfare". Which usually implies destroying the lives of those who don't submit to the authority of their political-religious fundamentalism.

    Spiritual Mapping and Spiritual Warfare

    A video starring Thomas Muthee as a prayer warrior and witch hunter was released in 1999. "Transformations" was the first in a series of videos that would soon become the heart of the Transformations franchise, a network of prayer warriors, ministries, organizations, and businesses, brought together for the purpose of promoting Christian theocracies. They share the goal of bringing their own communities and nations into the "Kingdom." These videos would play a major role in the teaching and promotion of spiritual mapping and spiritual warfare. Following is the story of those videos and how the Transformations brand has propelled the development of an emerging international belief system, the New Apostolic Reformation, and how it is bringing that movement into your community and your government.

    The Transformations videos are advertised as having been viewed by 200 million people in 70 languages. A star of the videos is none other than Thomas Muthee - the same man whose anointing of Sarah Palin has become an issue in the 2008 presidential campaign. But the videos are important for far more reasons than Palin and Muthee. Muthee's words, just prior to anointing Palin, on invading and infiltrating society and government are not aberrations. They reveal the disturbing ideology of a growing and powerful religio-political movement in the U.S. and around the world.

    An international explosion in "taking communities" through spiritual warfare and expulsion of demons, from individuals and from entire geographic areas, has impacted denominations around the globe. The popularizing of these methods is sourced in the massive effort to evangelize the world in the decades prior to the year 2000. Much of the dissemination of these ideas was through parachurch organizations (religious organizations not associated with a particular denomination), that emerged from Pentecostalism and developed networks around the globe...The videos have been a major factor in the global promotion of "prayer warrior" networks specifically linked to these efforts.

    The franchise has been so successful that the "Transformations brand" has a distinct meaning to many worldwide. The videos, which have been used as the central teaching tool of the movement for nearly a decade, reveal not just another grandiose program of global evangelizing -- but an explicitly theocratic political movement of consequence in a number of countries - including the United States. There are Transformation-related groups in almost every state and every major city.

    The New Apostolic Reformation and the associated Transformations "franchises" aim to unify the church around the globe and take control of the world for the "Kingdom of God." This movement has evolved into its own distinct structure with networks of Apostles and Prophets around the globe who believe that that Christendom should be restructured under their authority to accomplish the task of bringing together a unified end time church that will help to usher in the Kingdom of God.

    These believers are not waiting for the Rapture but believe they must combat evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government. The Transformations videos have been used as a major promotional tool for the advancement of the methods for taking control - spiritual mapping and spiritual warfare. The videos demonstrate the taking control of communities and nations through large networks of "prayer warriors." whose spiritual warfare is used to expel and destroy the demons that cause societal ills. Once the territorial demons, witches, and generational curses are removed, the "born again" Christians in the videos take control of society. The videos then claim that these communities experience an "alignment with God" which allows for miraculous curing of poverty, disease, environmental degradations, and other societal ills.

    The video series glorifies the movement towards theocratic governance, real or imagined, in Uganda, Fiji, Colombia, and Guatemala, as well as the U.S. They are used as a tool for building "Transformations" brand organizations that in turn glorify the concept of authoritarian religious social engineering. The "stars" of these videos have already played a role in promoting witch hunts in Africa, endorsing death squads in Guatemala, the de-Catholicizing of Brazil, and the mythology of miraculous curing of AIDS in Uganda. The Transformations promote a complete merger of church and state and offer a glimpse of the "Kingdom" to come, when the world is purged of all other religion, and "Spirit-filled, born again" Christians take control of the leadership of all societal and government institutions.

    In case this sounds esoteric and far away, it is important to underscore that this movement is influential and powerful enough to have encompassed not only the Governor of Alaska, but also Ted Haggard, the now disgraced but once nationally renowned head of the National Association of Evangelicals. These leaders are not the exceptions, but the rule, as the movement comprises hundreds of organizations and thousands of churches across the country. Their activities fly under the radar of popular media by operating through hundreds of stealth evangelizing programs, with the goal of fulfilling this dream...
    more at http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/10/27/115813/98

  3. #28
    Lepton Boson Muon Guy Contributor Mezurashi's Avatar
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    one of the biggest draws for Christian villagers in old Europe was a practice known as Bear Baiting ... look it up ...

    inclusive 'religions' (like Shinto) hold their basic precepts of ideals without forcing it upon others nor do they Demand Absolute Fidelity (you can be a practicing Shintoist as well as a Buddhist and a Christian at the Same Time).

    not all religions are the same, basic truth there.

    but castigating an ENTIRE GROUP OF FAITH by the negative examples of a 'few' individuals is just the same as castigating an ENTIRE GROUP OF ANYTHING based on the examples of only a small sample group.

    I have many people in my life who are of the Islamic Faith and you know, I don't remember the last time any of them tried to force their view on me. I've had discussions with them about religion and they express their feelings and opinions just like I do, which is to say, "This is how I feel, but it may not be how you feel about it ..."

    I've met Muslim Extremists, in the Middle East, and guess what? They treated me far more politely and with far more respect than the Christian Extremists I also met in the M.E. so ... does my experience mean that Muslim Extremists are 'better' than their Christian counterparts?

    finally - extremism is extremism and bombs kill indiscriminately. it doesn't matter if the bomb was made by a Muslim, Irish Catholic or a member of the Aum Shinrikyo - these are the acts of a fringe element and thus to paint the whole group with the same brush is the same as plotting a curve from a single point of reference.

    devout faith in spirituality - it demands a lot from the Believers but in the end, let us not forget that "God Is Love."
    For every human problem there is an easy and simple answer. And it is always wrong. - H.L. Mencken

  4. #29
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Truth Files's Avatar
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    "In case this sounds esoteric and far away, it is important to underscore that this movement is influential and powerful enough to have encompassed not only the Governor of Alaska, but also Ted Haggard, the now disgraced but once nationally renowned head of the National Association of Evangelicals. These leaders are not the exceptions, but the rule, as the movement comprises hundreds of organizations and thousands of churches across the country. Their activities fly under the radar of popular media by operating through hundreds of stealth evangelizing programs, with the goal of fulfilling this dream"

    >You are looking at pseudo-Christian frontings by your examples .... they are not followers of Jesus Christ, but only claim to be

    >The true follower of Jesus Christ wants control of nothing, but is only interested in living to please the Lord and to present the christian witness to others .... neither do the scriptures of the Bible promote earthly self gaining behaviors .... in fact just the opposite

    >The genuine believer in Jesus Christ must live in the world, but is not to be part of it .... and neither is there any intent to force one's belief upon others .... the Lord Himself does not even do this

    >One either is for Him ..... or against Him, and the truth about the matter has already been determined ..... those that choose Him will gain eternal life ..... those that reject Him will not .... there is no other way for one to be saved from extinction

    >False christianity has been around since the first century and 80% of the "professing church" today falls into this catageory .... over 10,000 significant sects can be identified and evaluated as corrupted religions ..... the list is long and easily spotted by those who know and understand the Bible

    >The entire strain of perverted christian behavior is infested with human dogmas and extra biblical false teachings .... from the RCC, the protestant, to the fundamental "christian" cults

    >The Lord has warned about those who come in His name with the intent to deceive and mislead [Matthew 24:4-5]

    >Is the Bible the word of the living God as it claims to be and is faith in Jesus Christ an absolute and exclusive requirement for one's salvation ?

    ..... all will find out at the end of the road
    Last edited by Truth Files; Jul 5th, 2010 at 3:18 PM.

  5. #30
    Don't get comfortable. Contributor Goldmoon's Avatar
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    Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, but through Him.

    "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, but through Me." -Jesus

    "He who calls on the name of the Lord, shall be saved."

  6. #31
    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    This is the goal of the complainers in the op:

    Totalitarian State

    Last March, Sarah Palin enjoyed an extended telephone consultation and pep talk with Morningstar Ministries Founder and head Rick Joyner, who has contacts among Republicans in Congress and whose ministry is closely tied to Palin's most important Alaska church, the Wasilla Assembly of God.

    Even some of Sarah Palin's most dedicated fans might be taken aback by Joyner's enthusiastic advocacy for an authoritarian religious state. In a "prophecy" published June 19, 2007, Rick Joyner wrote, "The kingdom of God will not be socialism, but a freedom even greater than anyone on earth knows at this time. At first it may seem like totalitarianism.... Instead of taking away liberties and becoming more domineering, the kingdom will move from a point of necessary control while people are learning truth, integrity, honor, and how to make decisions, to increasing liberty so that they can."

    Joyner's dream is reminiscent of the visions of 20th Century communist revolutionary leaders who expected that centralized authoritarian government would initially be necessary but anticipated a period of greater freedom after capitalism was successfully vanquished.

    In a video segment released March 25, 2009, Rick Joyner described an extended phone chat with Palin during which he discussed meeting with members of Congress such as Michelle Bachmann, complained that media overage of the 2008 GOP vice presidential candidate Palin had been unfair, and declared "I believe there is a spiritual authority and a calling on Governor Palin that is extraordinary.... I believe she has a national calling on her life. I felt that when I first saw her on the television.... I felt, right away, 'I am listening to the President of the United States."
    http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/9/9/15652/45618

  7. #32
    Don't get comfortable. Contributor Goldmoon's Avatar
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    Real Christians don't want to setup a human kingdom on Earth. The One World Government under the Builderbergs are doing that, and they follow Lucifer.

    Its like in that other thread about Jesus' army. He already has an army of many millions, He doesn't need humans.

    As Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world" ("World" = "Planet" in the greek)

    "He who calls on the name of the Lord, shall be saved."

  8. #33
    Survivalist! Traveler's Avatar
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    Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

    2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    just remember that the battle ground between good and evil is in fact fought within the churches, not out in the world. Christ never instructed his bride to dominate the world but to come out from it and separate themselves unto God.

    You do not see me cursing God because of what I have been though. The problem is men, not God! Yes you get hurt, yes it is evil what so called Christians do to others. But you know that this is not what Jesus taught so do not blame him.
    Blessings in the name of my Lord Jesus Christ who came in the flesh and now sits at the right hand of our God on high.

    A confession of faith that the modern Evangelical movement can no longer make!

  9. #34
    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

    2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

    Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    just remember that the battle ground between good and evil is in fact fought within the churches, not out in the world. Christ never instructed his bride to dominate the world but to come out from it and separate themselves unto God.

    You do not see me cursing God because of what I have been though. The problem is men, not God! Yes you get hurt, yes it is evil what so called Christians do to others. But you know that this is not what Jesus taught so do not blame him.
    Please show me where I mentioned anything about blaming Jesus. My action, several times over, is to praise Jesus amidst all the screaming that is done promoting murdering, killing, hating and destroying in the "spiritual warfare" that is done in his name.

  10. #35
    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    Yet another facet of "spiritual warfare," this aimed at Jewish people in particular ~ using anti-semitism to force them back to their "ancient homeland" for the purpose of the final, orchestrated holocaust:

    "Jewish people will be flocking to Israel"

    There's some acceptance that statements such as Sarah Palin's prediction that Jews will soon be "flocking to Israel" may indicate Palin holds apocalyptic beliefs. What's not understood is that she's closely associated with a religious tendency whose leaders promote anti-Jewish conspiracy theories, including one most commonly used by the Third Reich, in the 1930's and 1940's, to whip up anti-Semitic hatreds: the claim that a worldwide cabal of Jewish bankers manipulates the world economy and preys on working classes.

    Stumping for her new autobiography, Sarah Palin has made a round of interviews with high profile media figures such as Oprah Winfrey and Barbara Walters. In the Walters interview Palin justified her support for expansion of Jewish settler enclaves on Israel's West Bank with a strange prediction. Walters asked, "Now let's talk about some issues - the Middle East. The Obama Administration does not want Israel to build any more settlements on what they consider Palestinian territory. What is your view on this ?" Palin responded, "I disagree with the Obama Administration on that. I believe that, um, the Jewish settlements should be allowed to be expanded upon because the population of Israel is going to grow. More and more Jewish people will be flocking to Israel in the days and weeks and months ahead."
    ...

    In short, this comes around to a concept widely promoted by Christian Zionists such as Christians United For Israel Founder, Texas megachurch pastor John Hagee, of the "fishers and hunters":

    "Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks." - Jeremiah 16:16, KJV

    Hagee and other Christian Zionists interpret that Biblical passage from the Book of Jeremiah as a prophecy which applies to current-day Jews worldwide.

    Christian Zionists, broadly speaking, are Christians who think God wills it that all Jews live in Israel - and who go to elaborate lengths to bring that about. Regardless of whatever differences there might be between John Hagee's and Sarah Palin's respective brands of Christianity, the two seem to share a narrative common to Christian Zionist theology, that a terrible upwelling of anti-Jewish hatred will in the end-times cause Jewish citizens of every nation on Earth to make aliyah and move to Israel.

    "Fishers" are, in that expected scenario, evangelists who try to convert Jews to Christianity and coax them to move to Israel. "Hunters" are overt anti-Semites who will come to hunt and kill those Jews who have not listened to the "fishers" and moved to Israel.

    John Hagee's controversial late 2005 "God sent Hitler" sermon, which in May 2008 caused then-presidential candidate John McCain to renounce a long-sought political endorsement from Hagee, was more gratuitously offensive, even, than the general public was aware. During the internationally televised sermon, as Hagee asserted Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were hunters sent by God to chase Europe's Jews towards Palestine, pastor Hagee pantomimed holding a rifle aimed at, presumably, those hunted Jews.

    Paradoxically, while "fishers" such as John Hagee decry overt acts of hatred and violence directed at Jews, they also promote various anti-Jewish myths, slurs, and conspiracy theories that foster anti-Semitism. The same grotesque paradox surfaces in Sarah Palin's religious tendency as well.
    ...

    more: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/11/19/174310/41/
    From the same page:

    The Time of the Hunters


    The Elijah Lists is a clearing house for Apostolic and Prophetic prophecy. The site is run by Steve Shultz, member of the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders, the inner circle of Prophets which includes Mary Glazier. Prophecies from leadership are posted regularly on this site. This includes a post by Avner Boskey in which he quotes Apostle Jim Goll's belief that the "time of the hunters" began on September 11, 2001. Goll also writes about this in his book "The Seer: The Prophetic Power of Visions, Dreams, and Open Heavens."

    Boskey describes the time of the hunters as "a worldwide season of anti-Semitic persecution which will purify the Jewish nation as well as fully bring them back to their ancestral homeland of Israel."
    http://www.elijahlist.com/words/disp...d.html?ID=3347

    It is time for ADL and other groups that monitor anti-Semitism to quit defending Christian Zionists and look honestly at the reasons why these millennial-driven activists have provided years of financial, logistical and political support for the expansion of the West Bank settlements. Anyone who preaches that a final Holocaust is necessary for the purification and regathering of Jews is not a friend of Israel.
    Last edited by calliope; Jul 5th, 2010 at 10:56 PM.

  11. #36
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Truth Files's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that Israel is still under the Lord's judgment for unbelief and rejection of Jesus Christ today .... but this is going to change during the coming period of His wrath against an unbelieving world .... a remnant part of Israel is going to turn to their Messiah and King

    So the nation is going to experience and unprecedented time of trouble .... but a believing remnant will be saved out of it

    .... the nation has returned in part to the land [in the midst of its historical and ancient enemies .... the adherents of Islam], and there for a purpose .... notice that the world's attention is being focused upon the Middle East today ..... this is the Lord's doing


    [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 36; Daniel 12; Zechariah 12, 13, 14; Matthew 24; Romans 11]


    So the believer in Jesus Christ must not be found standing in the way of His intents ..... and religions that boast of anti-Semitic moorings, including those who "profess" christianity, are to be suspect

    He Himself is an ethnic Israelite by His Humanity and He is still the Messiah and King of Israel .... the world is going to find out that this is true .... soon

    Study the prophetic scriptures on this subject and watch the Middle East

  12. #37
    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    We firmly believed that Ronald Reagan was being advised by his close personal friends, all of whom were fundamentalist Christian Armageddonists. These men and women convinced Reagan that in order for Jesus to return again, certain things had to be fulfilled, among them, a new temple had to be built, or at least started, and a war in Israel had to be started which would lead to Armageddon. These men believed that the creation of Israel in 1948 was God's way of telling them that Armageddon would happen in this century!
    ...

    The men who advised Reagan believed that for Jesus to come a second time, that Armageddon would have to destroy Israel. Very few of these men ever discussed the huge number of lives that would be lost. Needless to say, most of these lives would be Israeli lives. From my point of view, it appears that what Hitler didn't finish during World War II would be finished by Christians who used their interpretation of Bliblical prophecy to start the "Final Holocaust - ARMAGEDDON!"

    H. L. Wilmington, leader of Jerry Falwell's Liberty Home Bible Institute is one of the few men who laid it all out, including the fact that millions of Jews would perish in this Second Holocaust: "All hell will break loose and many of the Jews will lose their lives. In fact, there are some theologians that feel on the basis of reading Zachariah:14 that two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered. Wilmington put the number of Jews who would be slaughtered at 16 million. There aren’t 16 million Jews in Israel, which makes me wonder if he was talking about slaughtering all the Jews in the world!

    What is very strange to me is that many loving and kind Christians eagerly look forward to the Second Coming of Jesus, all the while knowing that the Bible says he won’t come until after Armageddon. The current interpretation of Armageddon places Armageddon in Israel! In other words, in order for Jesus to return and fulfill Biblical prophecy, Jews have to die in a mass "slaughter" that could be rightly called - Genocide!

    Is it any wonder that Rabbi Balfour Brickner said, “...if the president really believes in some facet of this Armageddon idea, it’s a very scary business.” This "very scary business" translates Armageddon into Genocide for Jews!
    http://www.rumormillnews.com/ARMAGEDDON%20ARTICLE.htm

    Hitler's Genocide, Christian theocracy, Destruction of Islam, Unlimited oil, Occupied, strategic territory between Russia and China, Western hegemony....Manifest destiny.

    Stir up animosity between Muslims and Jews, and you're almost there.


  13. #38
    Starseed Contributor calliope's Avatar
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    Extending Reagan's Legacy for orchestrating Armageddon:

    Pushback on Armageddon

    As the nation turns against war in the Middle East, Christian Zionists continue their agitation for attacking Iran as a way to hasten Armageddon, the end-time. And the most prominent Jewish organizations continue to embrace Christian Zionists as supporters of Israel, which Christian Zionists believe will be the scene of the end-times return of Jesus.

    Meanwhile, some Christians are warning of the consequences of the Christian Zionists' agenda. Dr. Stan Moody, author of Countdown to Armageddon, which we've just posted, writes with concern about a fundamentalist drive "to focus American hegemony on the Middle East to orchestrate the return of Christ."

    The Jewish organizations are silent about the fundamentalist Christian domestic agenda of their Christian Zionists allies. But that does not mean that Jews around the country are at ease with it.
    ...
    The same disconnect pertains to the Jewish organizations' advocacy for an aggressive US policy toward Iran -- the more so because Christian Zionists also favor attacking Iran. Jewish organizational leaders laugh off the fact that their Christian Zionist allies see war with Iran as hastening the last battle, Armageddon, which will they say will destroy all Jews who don't convert to Christianity. The Jewish organizations, however misguidedly, view war on Iran as protective of Israel.

    Pastor Hagee
    The leader of the most prominent Christian Zionist group -- and one of the loudest voices for attacking Iran -- Pastor John Hagee (pictured here), is scheduled to give a keynote address to a policy conference of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) this weekend, according to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA). AIPAC is Israel's lobbyist in Washington.

    Hagee heads Christians United for Israel (CUFI) and has gathered a long list of top religious right leaders on its governing bodies. His book, Jerusalem Countdown: A Prelude to War, promotes attacking Iran. Hagee bases this "foreign policy" on cherry-picked biblical verses which he interprets to forecast the end-times battle of Armageddon. Christian Zionists believe that battle will take place in Israel and presage the return of Jesus. Hagee predicts it coming at the end of a war that begins in Iran.

    Also citing biblical verses, Hagee argues adamantly that Israel should not trade any land for peace in a settlement with the Palestinians. He embellishes his Middle East warmongering with crude attacks on Muslims and Islam. (Please follow the links below this essay for the details)
    ...
    Christian Zionists believe that Armageddon awaits the immigration of all the world's Jews to Israel. That explains Hagee's demand that Israel keep all the land it occupied in 1967. And it also undoubtedly explains -- though hardly excuses -- his statement in Jerusalem Countdown that the Holocaust resulted from Jews' refusal to move to Israel when bidden by Theodor Herzl:

    God then sent the hunters. The hunter is one who pursues his target with force and fear. No one could see the horror of the Holocaust coming, but the force and fear of Hitler's Nazis drove the Jewish people back to the only home God ever intended for the Jews to have -- Israel. I stand amazed at the accuracy of God's Word and its relevance for our time.

    What we can say about that is that it's an ironic counterpoint to the Satmar Hasidic Jews who blame Jews' embrace of Zionism for the Holocaust, as God's retribution. What Jewish organizations have said about it: absolutely nothing. After repeatedly quoting the Iranian president's denial of the Holocaust, perhaps they have no excoriating left in them.

    Hagee, for the record, has also said on National Public Radio's Fresh Air that Jews will drop their refusal to accept Christ when they see "him whom they have pierced."

    Zechariah very clearly says that they are not going to believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah until they see him. Zechariah says in the 14th chapter `and when they, the Jewish people, see him whom they have pierced'--and the word pierced there actually refers to his rib and side--`when they see him whom they have pierced, they will weep as one weeps for his only son for a period of one week.

    Jewish organizational leaders have said repeatedly that they have Hagee's promise not to proselytize Jews.
    ...
    One exception is Abraham Foxman, the director of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL). In 2005 he urged the big Jewish organizations to take a stand against the Christian right, which, he warned, wants to establish a theocracy in the United States. Foxman's colleagues publicly rejected his call and he largely stopped his public criticism.
    ...
    [T]here are elements in the Evangelical community who would like to impose Christianity by government edict. Some openly call for the Christianization of America, claiming that America has always been a Christian nation and that all institutions should be Christianized. Others, less dramatically, are calling for policies that would amount to religious coercion.

    When we challenge those efforts or take a position that many Evangelicals differ with, some play the Israel card. They say, "We are the best friends of Israel, how could you?" Some have even threatened that their support of Israel could be removed if we continue on the issue with which they disagree.

    The ADL has called for Congressional hearings on religious coercion in the military. But, while the Christian right continues to advance, there is a great Jewish silence. Where there should be urgent discussion, there is none.
    full article: http://www.jewsonfirst.org/07a/pushback_armageddon.html

  14. #39
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Truth Files's Avatar
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    "Stir up animosity between Muslims and Jews, and you're almost there."

    >Who do you think is stiring?

    >The information posted above is anti-Semitic garbage .... and very anti-Christ

    .... to think that those who read and understand the Bible are the ones stiring is a total folly

    >First of all, Jesus Christ is coming before the consumation of His hour [time] of trial at Armageddon to take vengence upon an intransigent and unbelieving world

    >Those who do not understand the prophetic scriptures can be deceived .... and many are in the business of perverting the truth about the matter .... and satan is their cheerleader

    >It is the Lord Himself who has created the offset between Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau for His intents as He moves this focused stand off toward a final accounting which will engulf the earth in upheaval and will result in the fall of all human self government

    >To think otherwise is absurd .... all of the barking of the conspiracy theorists, unregenerate Judaism, and certain persuasions of "professing" christianity will be silenced and put to an end

    >One either believes the biblical view of this setting, or they do not .... and the unwary and unlearned know nothing about it

    >He is coming to rule the earth Himself in person and no human or satanic countering will stop Him

    >His sudden intervention to take back the earth will shock the world and billions will die of both the unbelieving portion Israel and of the nations in the process and lost forever because these have refuse Him


    Psalms
    2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

    2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

    2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

    2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

    2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

    2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

    2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

    2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    2Thessalonians
    2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Revelation
    6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Zechariah
    12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

    12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

    14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    Joel
    3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

    3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

    3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

    3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

    3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

    3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

    3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

    3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

    3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

    3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

    3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

    3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

    3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

    3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

    Luke
    21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

    21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

    21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

    21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

    21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

    21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

    21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.


    >Are all religions the same?

    ..... those that deny Jesus Christ, His Word, and His intents are the same

    >Do not be deceived by them

    >Seek and learn the scriptures of is Word ..... and notice today's current events with regard to Israel and the Middle East

    ..... all right in front of your face

    >Believe this:

    Revelation
    3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    Last edited by Truth Files; Jul 6th, 2010 at 5:39 AM.

  15. #40
    Karma police Zer0th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Files View Post
    >First of all, Jesus Christ is coming before the consumation of His hour [time] of trial at Armageddon to take vengence upon an intransigent and unbelieving world
    It amazes me that some read the Gospels to concoct a Jesus as a bringer of vengeance. M-16 with grenade launchers or launching Potter-like spells from horseback, perhaps.

    Revelation
    [...]

    6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Yep, there are plenty of references in the Bible to the stars falling to earth. Clearly the writers had no clue (as one would reasonably expect, at the time, of human authors) regards the humongous difference between a meteorite and a star.

    Though it will be quite the Hollywood production to have trillions of super-massive thermonuclear bodies converge on earth simultaneously, eh?

  16. #41
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Truth Files's Avatar
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    "It amazes me that some read the Gospels to concoct a Jesus as a bringer of vengeance. M-16 with grenade launchers or launching Potter-like spells from horseback, perhaps."

    >Because you are obviously ignorant of the scriptures, do not understand them, and sweep them under the rug


    2Thessalonians
    1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

    Jude
    1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

  17. #42
    Karma police Zer0th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Files View Post
    "It amazes me that some read the Gospels to concoct a Jesus as a bringer of vengeance. M-16 with grenade launchers or launching Potter-like spells from horseback, perhaps."

    >Because you are obviously ignorant of the scriptures, do not understand them, and sweep them under the rug
    Au contraire mon petit truther. I've read the texts [canon and ex-canon], the analysis of biblical scholars, historians, archeologists and linguists etc.

  18. #43
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Truth Files's Avatar
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    "Au contraire mon petit truther. I've read the texts [canon and ex-canon], the analysis of biblical scholars, historians, archeologists and linguists etc."

    >Ok Zero, since your are a Bible expert, give the forum your contrary interpretation of the following verses below .... you said :

    "It amazes me that some read the Gospels to concoct a Jesus as a bringer of vengeance. M-16 with grenade launchers or launching Potter-like spells from horseback, perhaps."

    >It will be interesting to see how you wiggle and twist against the Lord's Word on this one

    2Thessalonians
    1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

    Jude
    1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


    >You might as well go to another corner of the forum because you are no match against Jesus Christ .... neither is the devil's ruse that you follow

  19. #44
    Karma police Zer0th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Files View Post
    "Au contraire mon petit truther. I've read the texts [canon and ex-canon], the analysis of biblical scholars, historians, archeologists and linguists etc."

    >Ok Zero, since your are a Bible expert,
    Bzzzzt: I never made any claims to expertise, rather, a broad purview.

    give the forum your contrary interpretation of the following verses below .... you said :

    "It amazes me that some read the Gospels to concoct a Jesus as a bringer of vengeance. M-16 with grenade launchers or launching Potter-like spells from horseback, perhaps."

    >It will be interesting to see how you wiggle and twist against the Lord's Word
    Bzzzzt: I don't see the "Lord's Word", I see Saul/Paul's writing.

    And then the pseudonymous and much too late Jude.

    Sorry, give it to me from the proverbial horse's mouth or don't bother.

  20. #45
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Truth Files's Avatar
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    "Sorry, give it to me from the proverbial horse's mouth or don't bother"

    >That's what I thought .... you have no position and cannot explain your contradiction

    Revelation
    1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Joel
    3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

    3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

    3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

    3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

    3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

    3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

    3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

    3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

    3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

    3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.


    >Want more Zero?

  21. #46
    Karma police Zer0th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Files View Post
    "Sorry, give it to me from the proverbial horse's mouth or don't bother"

    >That's what I thought .... you have no position and cannot explain your contradiction
    And you appear unable to "quote" Jesus regards his status as deliverer of vengeance... only others that claim to speak for him, much as you do.

  22. #47
    Prepared survivor Seasoned Member Truth Files's Avatar
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    "And you can't "quote" Jesus regards his status as a deliverer of vengeance... only others that claim to speak for him, much as you do"

    >Again you fail ..... it is obvious that you don't know who the Lord is

    >Tell me, who is your "lord" ..... the Lord of the scriptures presented in the Bible .... or another?

    ..... or maybe you have none

  23. #48
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    The LORD = YHWH... Tetragrammaton. Any other questions I can help you with?

  24. #49
    Don't get comfortable. Contributor Goldmoon's Avatar
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    What is Jesus here to save us from?

    "He who calls on the name of the Lord, shall be saved."

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldmoon View Post
    What is Jesus here to save us from?
    Those that claim to speak for him?
    (when they're not beating each other over the head)

    /sarc

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