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Thread: Question for both sides

  1. #1
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    Question for both sides

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    Christian side-Why couldn't God have cause the big bang and evolution to happen while leaving the details out of the bible and focusing on the man/God relationship?

    Atheist side-Same question with the following caveat...

    If God exists and He wants to be sure that the created choose to believe in him and have faith, He'd have to prevent there from being any evidence of His existence which could not be argued as happening through other means.

    Let go of the "There's no proof" argument for this one.

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    Bite Me Contributor JenaS62's Avatar
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    I'm an agnostic. I don't think you can ever know if god exists and I don't think that if he does, that as humans we could presume to know god. But I really don't understand the point of eliminating any evidence of his being so that we can have faith. Why would god do that? Sounds much more like men trying to make the masses believe in something that there is no proof of so that we behave.

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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Plenty of rational Christians believe something similar to what you posted, misterhamtastic.

    Plenty of religious people in general don't even have a need to reconcile reality with a holy book, though.

    And there are plenty in between.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

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    Survivalist! HindSight's Avatar
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    Is it fair, for the sake of this moment, to call your first theory Creation? By this, lets put all of nature: the entire universe and all it creates and all its forces into one bag and call it Creation - because that is what the universe does: creates planets, suns, on and on.

    The bottom line, Mate, is that if something did create Creation, there is no way in Hell we could ever know it personally - be it a true god, some kind of force/process, something conscious, etc.

    In the mean time, within Creation - the universe - there are so many levels of life in so many places that should one of those levels find its way to Earth, Man would think that visitor was a god, maybe think it was THE god ... when in fact the visitor is itself just another lifeform of Creation.

    Man keeps arguing over which of these 'visitors' or 'other worldly powers' is God: ETs, ether or spirit beings, souls, demons, Creation (the universe or that thing that may have created the universe (which by the way had to be a scientific process unto itself)) blah blah. Non Christians attempt to try to find out Creation's - universe - cause, thus maybe in figuring out what caused it, they may in fact prove, or disprove, there was a creator of it. Whether its a direction attempt or not, Man's exploration of science will lead him to proof the big god - or proof the Creation itself is conscious or some other proof that will not be easily accepted no matter how much it is proved.

    But not in our lifetimes, Mate. We're having too much fun arguing about ETs instead of concentrating on Earth's real problems. We are like little toddlers that just figured out there are other toddlers in the house next door. We get so excited that there is other life, we don't realize we live on a block full of houses, which sits in a quarter of town, which is near a capitol, which sits in a state, which sits in a country, which sits in a hemospher, which sits on a planet, which sits in a solar system, which sits in ...

    If Man ever did really attempt to count how much 'life' exists, his brain would explode from trying to do the math.
    Stop saying: We are not alone. Start asking: WHY ARE THEY HERE? - HindSight

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    So then we agree that this argument is pretty pointless? Evolution can be within creation, or vice-versa. So long as everyone believes something different about a deity or lack thereof, the wisest thing to do is agree to disagree, right?

    Oh, and find or nearest aliens and ask what they think...

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    Survivalist! HindSight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterhamtastic View Post
    So then we agree that this argument is pretty pointless? Evolution can be within creation, or vice-versa. So long as everyone believes something different about a deity or lack thereof, the wisest thing to do is agree to disagree, right?

    Oh, and find or nearest aliens and ask what they think...

    The POLITICAL thing to do is agree to disagree. I'm not a politican. The wisest thing to do is to agree to withhold judgment until all the proofs are in.
    Stop saying: We are not alone. Start asking: WHY ARE THEY HERE? - HindSight

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    Huh? Rabid1's Avatar
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    There are so many parallels that allow for both interpretations I have never understood why each side works so hard to deny the other when they could be working for a better understanding of both sides.

    A rather basic example of the parallels is the bible says god created the earth in six days and on the seventh rested.

    Why couldn't the first 6 ages Precambrian, Paleozoic ,Mesozoic, Cretaceous, Cenozoic, Pliocene, Paleolithic be the first six days and the Pleistocene to present being the 7th day. Pleistocene is the age where modern man is all that is left of the evolutionary chain of sapiens. If there were a greater power capable of creating all this how could he possibly have explained this to early man other than in a timeframe his mind could grasp.

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    Hindsight-well put.

    Rabid-pretty much what I'm saying. How would a deity explain to a mere mortal about how the moon was formed? The big bang? Galaxies? It's not a physics textbook.

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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterhamtastic View Post
    Hindsight-well put.

    Rabid-pretty much what I'm saying. How would a deity explain to a mere mortal about how the moon was formed? The big bang? Galaxies? It's not a physics textbook.
    But we do have physics books, which explain many of these things, which means the Deity (if it exists) must have created them in a way similar to what our most solid theories (and observations about reality) predict.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

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    True, but none that were written several thousand years ago.

    The ones we have today, on this subject, are all based on assumption and mathematics, which are both prone to error. If it were "revealed" by God, wouldn't it be complete and correct, based on our preparedness to comprehend?

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    Flying High. ecosikz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterhamtastic View Post
    How would a deity explain to a mere mortal about how the moon was formed? The big bang? Galaxies?
    I guess it.. you never read JOB?
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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterhamtastic View Post
    True, but none that were written several thousand years ago.

    The ones we have today, on this subject, are all based on assumption and mathematics, which are both prone to error. If it were "revealed" by God, wouldn't it be complete and correct, based on our preparedness to comprehend?
    Which begs the question, WHY aren't any of these things revealed by God? But you said earlier:


    How would a deity explain to a mere mortal about how the moon was formed? The big bang? Galaxies? It's not a physics textbook.
    I just remembered that I've made this same argument before to fundamentalists who simply will not accept science because it isn't expressly written in the Bible.

    If the Bible (or whatever) is the "word" of God, it was OBVIOUSLY not intended to be an exposition on how the world/universe was LITERALLY formed in any detail at all, but was instead intended as a general "gist of things" kind of thing, where the main point is that GOD MADE YOU, not that God set up the law E = mc^2, or Maxwell's equations, etc.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

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    Flying High. ecosikz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    because it isn't expressly written in the Bible.
    Actually it is expressly written in the bible on how God made everything.
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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecosikz View Post
    Actually it is expressly written in the bible on how God made everything.

    Tell me, where in the Bible does it mention God creating a 4 dimensional space-time of the form that is a subset of the Poincaré Group (also see this link) when changes in distance or time approach zero?

    Where in the Bible does it mention the wave-particle duality of matter?

    Where in the Bible does it mention creation of viruses and microorganisms?

    Where in the Bible does it mention evolution?

    Where in the Bible does it mention that how you experience time and distance is dependent upon how strong a gravitational field you reside in?

    Where in the Bible does it mention the Law of Periodicity?



    Yeah, none of this is in the Bible. If the Bible is truly of God, it stands to reason that he didn't consider these details (and the SCORES of others) to be of spiritual importance.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

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    Flying High. ecosikz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    Tell me, where in the Bible does it mention God creating a 4 dimensional space-time of the form that is a subset of the Poincaré Group (also see this link) when changes in distance or time approach zero?

    Where in the Bible does it mention the wave-particle duality of matter?

    Where in the Bible does it mention creation of viruses and microorganisms?

    Where in the Bible does it mention evolution?

    Where in the Bible does it mention that how you experience time and distance is dependent upon how strong a gravitational field you reside in?

    Where in the Bible does it mention the Law of Periodicity?
    your an agnostic so you misinterpreted scripture.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    Yeah, none of this is in the Bible.
    Yes it is.. read the bible and try not to misinterpret it, again..
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    Bull$hit Artist Contributor Blu-ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecosikz View Post
    your an agnostic so you misinterpreted scripture.




    Yes it is.. read the bible and try not to misinterpret it, again..
    Why don't you help us find it? Point us in the right direction so we don't get lost. Or, do you not know where it is?

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    A dinosaur... no reason Contributor Stabby Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecosikz View Post
    your an agnostic so you misinterpreted scripture.




    Yes it is.. read the bible and try not to misinterpret it, again..
    Then why don't you show us which parts of the Bible explain what was listed?
    Science doesn't have all of the answers... otherwise it wouldn't be science.

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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecosikz View Post
    your an agnostic so you misinterpreted scripture.

    [...]


    Yes it is.. read the bible and try not to misinterpret it, again..


    Misinterpret? Are you serious?

    So basically you are saying that 3000 years ago the people that read Genesis also read from that that space-time approaches a 4 dimensional metric in which time is represented by an imaginary parameter (something multiplied by the square root of negative one) and the three spatial dimensions each are represented by a parameter that spans the real numbers when the space-time interval in question is small?

    (usually written like this- in terms of SQUARING the space-time interval):

    s˛ = -c˛(Δt)˛ + (Δx₁)˛ + (Δx₂)˛ + (Δx₃)˛





    You believe this? (pun intended)





    Give me a yes or a no, since the only way your statement above is consistent is if your answer is yes- that is you believed that your average Jew circa 800 B.C. believed that on a small scale a space time interval can be described as 4 dimensional metric in which time is represented by an imaginary parameter (something multiplied by the square root of negative one) and the three spatial dimensions are each represented by a parameter that spans the real numbers.


    And also everything else (and much, much more) I listed in my previous post.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

  19. #19
    Flying High. ecosikz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    Misinterpret? Are you serious?
    I am "VERY" serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    You believe this? (pun intended)
    I do not only believe this.. but it is written in the bible, just like it was written that the twin towers would be destroyed and the future assassination of President Obama.





    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    Give me a yes or a no, since the only way your statement above is consistent is if your answer is yes- that is you believed that your average Jew circa 800 B.C. believed that on a small scale a space time interval can be described as 4 dimensional metric in which time is represented by an imaginary parameter (something multiplied by the square root of negative one) and the three spatial dimensions are each represented by a parameter that spans the real numbers.


    And also everything else (and much, much more) I listed in my previous post.
    I believe what is written in The Bible and this stuff is found in The Bible.
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    FlatLiner Contributor DontBeAfraid's Avatar
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    Eco is just trolling again. Neg rep.
    I aggressively attack stupidity... If you feel I am being aggressive, well....

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    Flying High. ecosikz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid View Post
    Eco is just trolling again. Neg rep.
    No I'm not. If I were to reply to stabbyjoe's post:
    "show us which parts of the Bible explain what was listed?"
    I would have to break the bible down to the point where it would take me atleast 1 year, to fulfill that stupid reply. btw what if I were to say the parts in the bible stabbyjoe is wanting is actually around 75% or more of the bible... its not just in Genesis it's everywhere in the bible!
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    FlatLiner Contributor DontBeAfraid's Avatar
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    No I'm not.
    Yes you are.

    I would have to break the bible down to the point where it would take me atleast 1 year, to fulfill that stupid reply.
    Only if you havent yet learned how to read and would need a year to learn how to read... Otherwise its as simple as pointing out where in the bible such things are stated. Its not like the bible is 100 thousand pages long...

    btw what if I were to say the parts in the bible stabbyjoe is wanting is actually around 75% or more of the bible..
    I would say that you really shouldnt have any problem showing this to us if its true.

    its not just in Genesis it's everywhere in the bible!
    lol... Alright troll.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid View Post
    Yes you are.
    No I'm not.

    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid View Post
    Its not like the bible is 100 thousand pages long...
    no, but its going to be hard as fuck to break the whole bible down.. to the point where CT's dumbass can understand wtf I'm talking about! but nonetheless I'll try my best... not to go insane during the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid View Post
    I would say that you really shouldnt have any problem showing this to us if its true.
    its not like a problem.. its more like aggravating... to the point that I actually have to break down something spiritual into words that an ignorant dumbass can understand.
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  24. #24
    FlatLiner Contributor DontBeAfraid's Avatar
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    No I'm not.
    Yes you are.

    no, but its going to be hard as fuck to break the whole bible down.. to the point where CT's dumbass can understand wtf I'm talking about! but nonetheless I'll try my best... not to go insane during the process.
    Luckily for you, its already broken down into many books and verses for you so it should really be quite easy to recite it...

    its not like a problem.. its more like aggravating... to the point that I actually have to break down something spiritual into words that an ignorant dumbass can understand.
    CT is pretty bright...
    I aggressively attack stupidity... If you feel I am being aggressive, well....

  25. #25
    Flying High. ecosikz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid View Post
    Yes you are.
    No I'm not.

    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid View Post
    Luckily for you, its already broken down into many books and verses for you so it should really be quite easy to recite it...
    really? Lucky for me? LOL! did you know that Genesis is a book and contains up to 500+ pages? now think of 66 books that are books containing up to 500+ each 500+ x 66 = 33000 pages! the bible I have compared to other "nowaday" bibles.. its pretty big and has a lot more info than that pos bible CT has read. the bible I have is really old and costs a lot.. but nonetheless it is very accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeAfraid View Post
    CT is pretty bright...
    no he's not.. and neither are you. let me guess you thought the bible I have.. had 700 pages right? a 700pages bible compared to a 33000+ pages bible.. how many pages are "nowaday" Christians.. actually missing? 33000 - 700 = 32300 pages... thats a lot of info missing wouldn't you agree?!
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