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Thread: Climategate Scientist makes Admission

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    Bite Me Contributor JenaS62's Avatar
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    Climategate Scientist makes Admission

    Disable These Ads!
    And no CT, I don't want to see any of your graphs or mathmatical equations.

    From Phil Jones:

    *Data for vital 'hockey stick graph' has gone missing
    *There has been no global warming since 1995
    *Warming periods have happened before - but NOT due to man-made changes

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0fcR2bWoG

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    Survivalist! HindSight's Avatar
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    This is on the radio right now: channel 1040 AM WHO. He is saying 'a crisis boosts the economy. Al Gore wanted something the entire world could 'get behind' so the climate was chosen to give credit for the need of a world government/world control group'.

    http://radiotime.com/station/s_20249/WHO_1040.aspx
    Stop saying: We are not alone. Start asking: WHY ARE THEY HERE? - HindSight

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    DIE! By my hand! Administrator MetalMilitia's Avatar
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    Breakfast + boredom = cute dog w/ climate papers. Don't ask....
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    Bite Me Contributor JenaS62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HindSight View Post
    This is on the radio right now: channel 1040 AM WHO. He is saying 'a crisis boosts the economy. Al Gore wanted something the entire world could 'get behind' so the climate was chosen to give credit for the need of a world government/world control group'.

    http://radiotime.com/station/s_20249/WHO_1040.aspx


    Thanks Hindsight - I'm listening now.

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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Mods, this thread should be moved to Climate Change

    Quote Originally Posted by JenaS62 View Post
    And no CT, I don't want to see any of your graphs or mathmatical equations.
    Of course not. Why would you want to have to think hard this early.


    Quote Originally Posted by JenaS62 View Post
    From Phil Jones:

    *Data for vital 'hockey stick graph' has gone missing
    *There has been no global warming since 1995
    *Warming periods have happened before - but NOT due to man-made changes

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0fcR2bWoG
    (1) Wrong forum.

    (2) He didn't say anything that isn't new.


    What exactly is the point you are trying to make? If anything, this only shows that the IPCC can't be trusted to accurately transmit science to the general public.





    Now to address your *'s:


    Quote Originally Posted by JenaS62 View Post
    *Data for vital 'hockey stick graph' has gone missing
    Your link claims Jones' colleagues admit that he is very unorganized. Definitely a possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by your link
    Discussing the interview, the BBC’s environmental analyst Roger Harrabin said he had spoken to colleagues of Professor Jones who had told him that his strengths included integrity and doggedness but not record-keeping and office tidying.

    [...]

    According to Mr Harrabin, colleagues of Professor Jones said ‘his office is piled high with paper, fragments from over the years, tens of thousands of pieces of paper, and they suspect what happened was he took in the raw data to a central database and then let the pieces of paper go because he never realised that 20 years later he would be held to account over them’.

    Asked by Mr Harrabin about these issues, Professor Jones admitted the lack of organisation in the system had contributed to his reluctance to share data with critics, which he regretted.
    So we have a disorganized scientist. It happens in every profession.


    Quote Originally Posted by JenaS62 View Post
    *There has been no global warming since 1995
    He says, "for the past 15 years there has been no statistically significant global warming." Oh, but look at the graphs. They show more or less exactly that! Look at any global temperature graph and you see that we have been on a cooling trend the last 5 years or so and that the last hot peak was during the PREVIOUS solar cycle- as I have said over and over and over and show with graphs over and over and over.

    He is incorrect though, since the peak of warming in the last 20 years was in the late 90s, not the mid-90s, although those are probably delayed effects from things that occurred a few years ealier.



    Quote Originally Posted by JenaS62 View Post
    *Warming periods have happened before - but NOT due to man-made changes


    What's your point? At best human beings could only have a small effect anyway.

    However, did you not notice the contradiction here?


    First your link claims that there has been no warming since 1995, and then your link claims Jones says there was warming to 1998 that "could be explained by natural phenomena."

    So which is it? Was there warming after 1995 or was there not?

    And of course they could be explained by natural phenomena. As I have said a million times (figuratively), WE HAD UNUSUALLY ACTIVE SOLAR CYCLES THEN.



    Lord, I really don't get it. First there is the need to assume a conspiracy. Then there is a need to argue against strawmen.





    What I see here is a bunch of people making huge assumptions because they really really want to believe in the conspiracy theory. But let me reiterate:


    NOTHING about climate change in that interview is new data. Look at a temperature graph! You will see that there has been no significant warming since the late 90s.

    Then, look at graphs of the solar cycle. You will see that early warming in this century correlates with high solar cycles. Again, nothing new.



    The only new piece of data is that Jones lost some data that he had in his office 20 years ago. Now, I know you all want to believe in the conspiracy, but how many of you have, say, your tax information from 20 years ago nicely stowed away?

    This is just fucking ridiculous, this conspiracy theory crap. First of all, NO ONE in the scientific community is going to take a conclusion seriously if the data can't be found and corroborated.

    Second, Phil Jones is ONE SCIENTIST. He is not ALL OF SCIENCE. However, if you actually read what he says in the interview, he is NOT completely gung ho about human induced climate change, seen here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Sceptics believe there is strong evidence that the world was warmer between about 800 and 1300 AD than now because of evidence of high temperatures in northern countries.

    But climate change advocates have dismissed this as false or only applying to the northern part of the world.

    Professor Jones departed from this consensus when he said: ‘There is much debate over whether the Medieval Warm Period was global in extent or not. The MWP is most clearly expressed in parts of North America, the North Atlantic and Europe and parts of Asia.

    ‘For it to be global in extent, the MWP would need to be seen clearly in more records from the tropical regions and the Southern hemisphere. There are very few palaeoclimatic records for these latter two regions.

    ‘Of course, if the MWP was shown to be global in extent and as warm or warmer than today, then obviously the late 20th Century warmth would not be unprecedented. On the other hand, if the MWP was global, but was less warm than today, then the current warmth would be unprecedented.’

    Skeptics said this was the first time a senior scientist working with the IPCC had admitted to the possibility that the Medieval Warming Period could have been global, and therefore the world could have been hotter then than now.
    As you can see, the way you are portraying Jones and the positions he actually has taken according to the link you posted are not exactly the same.




    Third, once again, there is no new information here about climate change science. None. Maybe it is news to YOU, but if it is, it is because YOU are WILLFULLY IGNORANT.





    I don't know how else to say it, but if you aren't going to really get into the details of it, you really shouldn't even post about it.


    EDIT- in other words, your thread ads nothing. There is nothing new in it, as far as I am aware. It is common knowledge that the last warming peak was in the late 90s. Why is it news that there hasn't been warming since then? Have you not ever taken one look at a temperature graph and noticed that obvious fact?

    Also, the IPCC does hire scientists, but they are not a scientific organization. They allow data from sources that are not peer reviewed scientific publications.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

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    Bite Me Contributor JenaS62's Avatar
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    CT apparently the DailyNews thought it was important and timely. The article is dated February 14th.

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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenaS62 View Post
    CT apparently the DailyNews thought it was important and timely. The article is dated February 14th.
    Jena, it was also these news sources that so idiotically misunderstood the email about the Divergence Problem.




    Again, there is absolutely zero new information about climate change in this. None of Jones' "confessions" are in any way somehow the silver bullet that will finally prove a mass conspiracy, since EACH OF THEM have been known FOR YEARS.

    Again, look at a temperature graph. Google one. When is the last time those graphs say that we had a hot spike?

    Oh my! The late 90s!




    If it has been well known for years that there hasn't been any major warming since the late 90s, why is it a big deal that Jones "admits" that that is the case?

    Please just answer that one question.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

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    Bite Me Contributor JenaS62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesiantheater View Post
    If it has been well known for years that there hasn't been any major warming since the late 90s, why is it a big deal that Jones "admits" that that is the case?

    Please just answer that one question.

    I wanted to hear him admit it as I'm sure many others did. What exactly are you so bent about? If it's not a big deal, why must you constantly defend it like a rabid dog?

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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenaS62 View Post
    I wanted to hear him admit it as I'm sure many others did. What exactly are you so bent about? If it's not a big deal, why must you constantly defend it like a rabid dog?
    My issue is with the gross ignorance of this subject, particularly among these so called "skeptics"- the laymen, I mean. For example, you ask why I constantly defend "it" like a rabid dog. What is "IT?" In your mind it's (apparently) one thing: Al Gore's global warming theory. What I have been defending this entire time is ACCURACY in the justifications for the conclusions people are making.

    For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by your link
    Professor Jones has been in the spotlight since he stepped down as director of the University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit after the leaking of emails that sceptics claim show scientists were manipulating data.

    I can't believe this ignorance is still being propagated. No one was manipulating data. See factcheck.org:




    Quote Originally Posted by factcheck.org

    News coverage of the e-mails and the various claims about what they supposedly show may have contributed to public confusion on the subject. (still happening, apparently)

    [...]
    An article from the conservative-leaning Canada Free Press claims that the stolen files are proof of a "deliberate fraud" and "the greatest deception in history."

    We find such claims to be far wide of the mark. The e-mails (which have been made available by an unidentified individual here) do show a few scientists talking frankly among themselves — sometimes being rude, dismissive, insular, or even behaving like jerks. Whether they show anything beyond that is still in doubt. An investigation is being conducted by East Anglia University, and the head of CRU, Phil Jones, has "stepped aside" until it is completed. However, many of the e-mails that are being held up as "smoking guns" have been misrepresented by global-warming skeptics eager to find evidence of a conspiracy.

    [...]


    Claims that the e-mails are evidence of fraud or deceit, however, misrepresent what they actually say.



    [...]


    Other quotes that skeptics say are evidence of "data manipulation" actually refer to how numbers are presented, not to falsifying those numbers. For instance, in one e-mail climate scientist Tom Crowley writes: "I have been fiddling with the best way to illustrate the stable nature of the medieval warm period." Crowley is referring to the best way to translate the data into a graphic format.

    I mean, if you want to know why I act like a rabid dog, it's because there is STILL and AMAZING level of ignorance about this situation among not only the public, but also the media!


    When a very reliable organization like FactCheck.Org investigates and finds that the conspiracy theory claims are off the mark, and THEN NUMEROUS other groups do as well, and then I PERSONALLY research the info and find out that I come to the same conclusion as factcheck.org, and then I STILL see news media outlets stating things that are INCORRECT, it really grinds my gears.



    My biggest concern is that you guys simply do not wish to expend the time and effort to educate yourself even enough to understand what I am arguing and why I am doing it. To you, I am simply defending "it."







    As far as Jones "admitting" anything, the latest 90s warming spike was COMMON KNOWLEDGE. He WASN'T admitting that there hasn't been a major warming spike since then. That's RIDICULOUS and also symptomatic of the massive amount of ignorance about this issue in the minds of the general public.
    Last edited by Cartesiantheater; Feb 15th, 2010 at 11:36 AM.
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

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    A dinosaur... no reason Contributor Stabby Joe's Avatar
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    Moved to more appropriate forum.
    Science doesn't have all of the answers... otherwise it wouldn't be science.

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    Survivalist! Reef Badlaw's Avatar
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    Here's the link to sign the petition that'll strip Al Gore and the UN/IPCC of the Nobel Prize....

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/nomorenobel/



    -Anybody seen Gore ? He's too spineless to debate, which is a politician's best weapon. At least Jones is answering questions.

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    Radioactive Serious Member Post-Apocalypse's Avatar
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    I have some new information on Global Warming! The Sun causes it. Duh.

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    AO Feminazi GamerGal's Avatar
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    *facepalm*

    Global Climate Change is FACT. Or is snow in Hawaii normal? What it isn't?!? I wonder then how it could be snowing in Hawaii last year so much it stuck and caused hundreds of accidents because they don't have plows or salt trucks. Ice caps melting, no snow in Canada(The FROZEN wasteland has no snow) and had it trucked in from Alaska for the Olympics.

    Is it man made? THAT is up for debate.
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    Cart-mod 2.0 Global Moderator Cartesiantheater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerGal View Post
    *facepalm*

    [...] Ice caps melting, no snow in Canada(The FROZEN wasteland has no snow) and had it trucked in from Alaska for the Olympics.
    I heard about that. Lol at guys like <insert name> listing specific local cold winters and yet ignoring this sort of thing. Local weather is simply not a good description of global trends.




    Quote Originally Posted by GamerGal View Post
    Is it man made? THAT is up for debate.
    You are right though. Climate change happens, and has for the entire ~ 4.5 billion year history of our planet.

    However, it isn't up for debate that humans CREATE climate change. That's ridiculous, since it would be ignoring the scores of other factors that have in the past caused climate change. What's up for debate is whether or not humans CONTRIBUTE in a meaningful way to it.

    Yeah, I know, I'm nitpicking. You meant what I said.



    Quote Originally Posted by Post-Apocalypse View Post
    I have some new information on Global Warming! The Sun causes it. Duh.
    Ultimately, yeah, since over 99% of the energy in our atmosphere comes from the sun, but terrestrial factors control how much of the energy our planet receives radiates back into space, and additionally how that energy is distributed (both of which affect the climate).
    "I was put on trial twice near Y2K for acting like Jesus and claiming to be the Messiah. Its not everyday that a man parks a Chariot of Fire in front of a tomb and stands against the US government with a bow and razor tipped arrows over his shoulder. I wore a suit of armor and was protected by an invisible bubble and my sharp tongue was more than the judicial system could handle."Jake
    "The toilet is more than a throne. It is a sacred chamber."-Anton LaVey, High Priest of Satanism

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    One left in the chamber Global Moderator TC's Avatar
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    Some comic debate for the topic...( "Pajama Media)

    PJM: Manfred Aufgeblasener-Schwätzer, welcome to Pajamas Media. Thank you for agreeing to this interview.

    M.A-S: I am honored.

    PJM: You are aware, of course, of the scandal unfolding at the Hadley CRU and elsewhere, popularly referred to as Climategate. What do you make of this?

    M.A-S: It is all nonsense, obviously, a minor — how do you say it in English? — a minor blip. The science is settled. The world is warming even as we speak, moment by moment. Averaged over a decade, the result is alarming. Over a century, it is catastrophic. The prospect of planetary heat-death makes one shudder and gives one nightmares. I have developed a great sensitivity over the years of my work at the Zentrum to the slightest variations in temperature. I see it not only in my computer models and mathematical graphs but can actually feel it on the back of my neck and at times over my entire body, as if I am trapped in a Swedish sauna.

    PJM: But surely the leaked emails and files indicating collusion among the various scientists involved, the suppression or distortion of critical data, the pressure levied against scientific journals to exclude the work of “climate skeptics,” the pre-selection of weather stations to inflate temperature records, the misuse of tree ring data, the sloppy note taking, the loss or deletion of vast amounts of archival material, the absorption of un-refereed articles, and so on, must signify that a massive scam has been perpetrated on an unsuspecting public.

    M.A-S: Not at all. Not at all. You cannot believe what you read in the blogosphere. It is all lies, I tell you, lies. And people are so naive and sometimes even disrespectful of the world’s great scientists. Was not Galileo threatened for his discoveries and forced to recant? Is not my friend, the esteemed Dr. Phil Jones at Hadley, being cruelly attacked even as we speak for his major insights and crucial breakthroughs? The world is growing hotter by the moment and if we do not act very soon, then before we know it there shall be no more icebergs, the islands of the Pacific will sink like rusty submarines, Greenland will become a desert, lobsters will cook in the oceans, volcanoes will boil over, the Arctic will become a spa, Holland will vanish — it is too horrible to contemplate. I have seen reports this very morning that the permafrost is dissolving and the frozen peat bogs are turning to sponge beneath the feet of Canada’s Inuit and Finland’s Laplander populations. My collaborator Dr. James Hansen of NASA foretells that New York City will be under fifty feet of water in just two or three generations, and he is an acclaimed expert. We would be foolish to challenge his word.

    PJM: But Dr. Aufgeblasener-Schwätzer, we now have reputable and undoubted evidence that there has been no global warming for more than a decade, and indeed the mean average temperature has actually declined by .07 degrees.

    M.A-S.: Lies, I tell you. You cannot trust contradictory evidence. Whatever goes against the current consensus is plainly a mischievous effort to undermine the credibility of our selfless scientists. In truth, what we are seeing is a conspiracy generated by anti-scientific frauds who refuse to accept what we are telling them and who will do anything to discredit genuine scientific analysis and malign the integrity of our dedicated researchers.

    PJM: But what would these so-called skeptics have to gain by their resistance?

    M.A-S: That is another issue. I do not have the facts, but I suspect it is world domination and the exploitation of the poor, the secret agenda of Western capitalism, whose sinister purpose these frauds and skeptics willingly serve.

    PJM: Well, be that as it may, what is your informed opinion regarding the Medieval Warming Period? New studies appear to suggest it was warmer then, or at least as warm as it is today, which would seriously compromise official assessments that we are living in unprecedented times.

    M.A-S: That is complete nonsense. After all, we were not there, so how can we really know? We have no sworn affidavits from the period; therefore speculation is, as we say, unwarranted. But I must be fair. There is indeed one document dating from the time, attributed to Frater Wolfgang the Amanuensis from the Cistercian monastery at Maulbronn, who claimed that the days were “as hot as hell” and that the Fiend would shortly make his parousia, his demonic advent. But this is clearly the fantasy of a crazy scriptorium dweller.

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    Lepton Boson Muon Guy Contributor Mezurashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerGal View Post
    no snow in Canada(The FROZEN wasteland has no snow) and had it trucked in from Alaska for the Olympics.
    hmm ... VANCOUVER, where the Olympics are being held, has no snow BUT THE REST OF CANADA IS 8 FEET DEEP IN IT ...

    for fucks sake, watch some world weather broadcasts ... or use the Internet for something other than 4chan ...
    For every human problem there is an easy and simple answer. And it is always wrong. - H.L. Mencken

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